Thomas Cooley Law School is an Embarrassment
Prominently displayed on the Thomas Cooley Law website is a link to the school ranking. They abandoned the US News ranking system, which certainly can be criticized, but also threw out logic and gave themselves a rank of twelve. Out of the entirety of United States law schools, they took a US News tier 4 school and made it number twelve.
What makes this absolutely more shocking is the “open and notorious” nature of this embarrassment… with no sense shame. Actually, it is on its 10th edition and the press release was authored by the President and Dean.
Fraud is defined by the dictionary as “intentional perversion of truth in order to induce another” and”an act of deceiving or misrepresenting.”
How did they arrive at this order? Cooley can only make this claim by sufficiently broadening the number of factors and then allotting them equal weight. Traditionally, highly important considerations are GPA, LSAT, Bar passage rate, and employment upon graduation. However, in this scheme they are given the same weight as Total Volumes in Library, Total Applications, Total Law School Square Footage, Program Achievement Rating Rank.
Cooley must believe it is being very witty using this equal footing formula accurately describe the entirety of a legal education.
Lets talk program achievement. “In essence, each school’s reported bar passage rate is divided by a quality index computed through a combination of LSAT and UGPA scores reported for that school [the formula used is Bar passage rate/(UGPA x 15 + LSAT) x .5].” This is the one factor which “double counts” the really important indicators, but don’t be fooled, it is moderated by 28 other comparatively less important factors. So they allotted themselves an 82 (whatever that means).
[80 divided by (3.o x 15 + 146) x .5
80/(3.0 x 15 +146 ) x .5 = 0.209424084
Now for Pitt:
90/(3.4 x 15 + 159) x .5 = 0.214285714
Cooley managed to take its 3 pitiful factors GPA, LSAT, and Bar passage and “shine that turd”. An 83 to 82 score is arbitrarily silly. Math is used to obscure the truth. Did you catch the manipulation?
I would suggest adding another category “Attrition rate” where Cooley would surely be number “1″ : 1st Year – 26%; 2nd Year – 10.4%. Cooley wants people to believe that it can accept a host of people with the worst statistics (independent indicators) and come out thinking they are a top law school.
This is nothing short of a delusion.
But this delusion extends to the highest reaches of the administration. Here is the opening paragraph by the President and Dean of the law school in a press release about the ranking system:
“The English nobility and the Indian caste system represent outdated notions of entitlement and reflect the evils of cultural discrimination. Indeed, Americans overthrew their former government largely because of the abuses of the self-perpetuating nobility that reserved for itself the privileges of participation in the English political and social systems. And Americans have replaced the caste system with equal protection under law. Americans inherently reject elitism and discrimination in favor of opportunity.” Cooley Press Release
This comparison to law school rankings balances tenuously on the verge of absolutely crazy. To relate systems of ethnic oppression to a ranking system that is grounded on merit is utterly shameless. Further, it is offensive to people facing discrimination and to those with the ability to think rationally. The mentality that Cooley openly advertises is anti-intellectual and fraudulent in nature. A perfect moment to try out my new labeling system, “Thomas Cooley Law School is the rubbish bin of academia.”
I worry not only about the students being deceived, but rather that this atmosphere will inevitably impact clients. The ABA should take a look at this practice because I doubt is isolated within Cooley. It is not just the single act of creating a fraudulent ranking system, but the environment that gave rise to it. If this is a symptomatic of a systemic failure, I think an in-depth inquiry is required by the ABA.
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Note: The comments section has filled with Cooley Apologists attempting to reconcile their attendance at Cooley via a colorful narrative. Please be weary that these individual stories are (1) totally unverified and (2) generally useless. I say the latter because it is a basic logical fallacy to cite to a specific example and make claims regarding the group – i.e. if John Boehner can pull himself up by his bootstraps and become a millionaire and speaker of the house, surely everyone can. Accordingly, some Cooley students will be successful, but on the aggregate the numbers across the board look comparatively awful. Attending Cooley with the idea of becoming a Slumdog Millionaire is totally foolish. Cooley people, please stop filling up the comment section with your inane and unverified personal stories. 6/30/2011
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I love the phrase “shine that turd,” and it is exquisitely used in this article.
*Darlings* if the US Dept of Education can’t do anything about all the college survey rankings and their very different and sometimes completely random methodology, I doubt the ABA can do anything about the hot mess described above. But I’d love to watch them try.
The ABA tends to have more control and power; for instance, Cooley wanted to have these small satellite schools become accredited for JD’s. At any rate, they eventually had to sue for accreditation. Another major difference is that Cooley pumps out professionals , not people with BA’s. These professionals must have far more responsibility, ethics, and intelligence. They are the representatives for other people and the ‘arbiters of justice’. So from the standpoint of the solvency of the industry, I think it is important that the ABA cite particularly egregious examples and reigned them in. Neffs, your right, they probably won’t. The solace is given in another manner, the Marketplace of Idea’s curtails the careers of the Cooley graduates – preventing them from causing ‘too much harm’.
I doubt there will be any sort of investigation, but there are some important differences between the ABA and the DoE. The DoE doesn’t really have any jurisdiction over state universities. It really doesn’t do much of anything because education is almost completely at the state level. Anything the DoE did do would have to be done under authority delegated by Congress, which is minimal in this sphere.
The ABA is not bound by the Constitutional limits on the federal government and it does have an important card to play in dealing with law schools – accreditation. Without knowing anything about this school in particular, I could imagine a scenario where a bottom-tier school lost its accreditation because of something like this.
This law school was only accredited by the ABA in 1975, if that means anything.
Funny how an institution will be critical of means just to establish another for its own purpose. I hope folks can see through this.
It’s funny, that the quality of output doesn’t matter. Screw the rankings because behind closed doors it’s my alma mater this, my alma mater that.
The caste system statement is definitely appropriate considering the fact that a school like Tuskegee University never gets ranked near the top in any U.S. News ranking, but just about 3 yrs. I read an article stating that the curriculum requirements were more demanding than Harvard. What it really all boils down to is legacy. Who’s do you want to follow? Do I want to go to a school where I’m paying prices to buy a brand or do I choose a school that is obviously producing high quality lawyers.
It’s kinda like the Audi commercial where everyone is under the “advertising” spell of BMW, Mercedes-Benz ……. That automobile will not literally change your life, it’s only transportation.
All colleges rankings do is give a false sense of security to students and parents. Due to the college rankings, now I’m GUARANTEED to be successful, right! It’s not the college, but the individual sitting in the seat that builds any university or colleges true legacy. It’s all about alumni, this is the most critical college ranking of all!
And you are right that it largely falls on the individual . You are wrong, however, that such rankings are immaterial. It often suggests raw intelligence, work ethic, and the rigor of the courses (which are harder inherently because you compete with better qualified people). It would be naive to think that a rigorous schedule at a tier 3 has the same impact of ‘less rigorous’ top 100 because of the students in attendance.
Ultimately, its all probative. However, I feel inherently uncertain about a person who couldn’t crack the 50% on the LSAT.
Standardized tests are quite questionable. Standardized tests and UGPAs have not been proven to be completely predictive of a students success. For one to think that they are shows pure ignorance. The President and Dean of the school is very correct in saying that a law school education should be available to those of all races and cultures, not just the privileged majority. Just as “werker holic” points to the fact that many law schools with excellent programs are over looked…perhaps they have one too many of the other cultures…
I’m sure you will try to discredit everything I say simply because I do not have a legal education. So I ask, who are you, or anyone else for that matter, to say that someone with mediocre grades and scores can’t become a lawyer. Drive, perseverance, and motivation are far more important than any score on a standardized test.
This world is not perfect or cookie cutter; people are forced to experience setbacks and adversity. If a person comes out of undergrad with a low GPA it may not be that they are not cutout for law school or rather they have truly had a hard life, but you have to give them credit for actually persevering. Furthermore, the most intelligent person on earth could be a horrible test taker. Does that mean they should be refused a legal education? These rules are put in place by people who want to keep their professional circle closed to those of certain backgrounds. They are no better than Cooley because they are too guilty of committing ”an act of deceiving or misrepresenting.” Chairpersons from schools like Harvard and Yale as well as the ABA Committee are fully aware of what they are doing and who they want impacting America, and that is why they make such ridiculous rules and seem to always bend the truth and/or exclude certain factors from the ranking method to most benefit their purpose.
I could go on and on as I am completely saddened that America is still a racist and prejudice place, which will not change in my lifetime. To end, I would like to say how proud I am of what Cooley stands for and is trying to achieve! This inequality must come to an end.
If the LSAT only tests how hard one prepares for it, and not intelligence at all, then prepare for it. If you lack the ability to perform well on the LSAT, then it must test some ability that you do not have. The LSAT is not an IQ test, but I would be willing to wager that a very large percentage of those who score above 175 have IQs over 130. People who do not have these IQs don’t like that they aren’t able to go to Harvard. Sucks to be them.
“Standardized tests are quite questionable. Standardized tests and UGPAs have not been proven to be completely predictive of a students success.” -Straw man? He never said it was 100% predictive. Hell the LSAC doesn’t state that; they say it’s highly correlated to 1l performance. He also never said it is certain someone who can score above 151 is incapable. He said he would highly doubt the persons ability to succeed in LS. And no, the TEST is not QUITE questionable. Sorry for reviving this old comment but this reply was somewhat stupid.
I don’t think the difference between this law school and a real top tier law school should be compared to Audi and BMW. This is not an Audi law school pretending to be a BMW law school. This is a Saturn law school pretending to be a BMW law school.
That’s exactly what I thought. It’s not the Audi-BMW-Mercedes debate, which would be the Yale, Harvard, Stanford/Duke/Chicago/Whoever….
If there was a commercial showing a BMW and Mercedes driving side by side, and a half rusted out Geo Metro flew past it, implying it was somehow “better”, i’d laugh my ass off
“The President and Dean of the school is very correct in saying that a law school education should be available to those of all races and cultures, not just the privileged majority…So I ask, who are you, or anyone else for that matter, to say that someone with mediocre grades and scores can’t become a lawyer…I could go on and on as I am completely saddened that America is still a racist and prejudice place, which will not change in my lifetime….”
You do realize that you are, through your comment, intimating that Cooley is the only law school minority students are able to attend because all minorities are mediocre students…Could that flawed hypothesis be the true premise of or rather the audience Cooley is attempting to reach with those rankings? If so then: flawed hypothesis = flawed conclusion.
Perhaps you are right. It may be a stretch to compare Cooley to an Audi, however, automakers are aware that everyone cannot afford an Audi or BMW…What we have found in more recent years is a response to the nation financial crisis, a compromise between luxury and affordability. Is Harvard law willing to lower there prices to be more affordable? Not likely. Therefore, some of the less attractive schools are attempting to make themselves sexier. This is why we have your Chrysler 300′s and your 2011 Buick’s. Even brands like Kia and Hyundai have become more attractive…regardless of previous reputations. Luckily with cars, if you cant afford it, you don’t need, however, education is not that simple.
March 2010:
“Cooley Teams Find Success at Moot Court Regional in California
Four students from Cooley Law School found success in Palo Alto, Calif., recently when they earned honors in the regional round of the American Constitution Society’s Constance Baker Motley Moot Court Competition.
Cornelius J. Rotteveel and Anna White argued their way to the final four teams in the competition’s semi-final round, which was held March 5-7 at Stanford University. Twenty-two teams competed through three rounds down to eight teams in the quarter finals. Rotteveel and White out-argued the team from the University of Michigan in this round to advance to the semi finals.
In the same competition, Cooley students Robert DeVries and James Kreitler were judged to have written the Second Best Respondent Brief.”
Wow. U of M got beaten by a couple kids from the crappiest law school ever? That must really be a blow to their Top 10 ego. For those of you who need to convince yourselves that this was a fluke, it isn’t…
March 2010:
Lowell Johnson and Derek Levinsky, students at the Auburn Hills campus of the Thomas M. Cooley Law School, went undefeated in the Las Vegas regional rounds of the 2010 American Bar Association Law Student Division’s National Appellate Advocacy Competition. The Cooley team will travel to Chicago on April 8, 2010 to compete in the national finals as one of only 24 teams participating from across the country.
Johnson and Levinsky defeated teams from Stetson University College of Law, Chicago-Kent College of Law, Thomas Jefferson College of Law and two teams from the University of California Los Angeles School of Law to achieve a perfect 5-0 record. They also received an award for the second best brief among the 32 teams participating. Levinsky was recognized as the highest scoring advocate by the judges in four of his five rounds and Johnson was recognized as the highest scoring advocate by the judges in his fifth round.
Wow, sucks to be UCal Law!
December 2008:
Thomas M. Cooley Law School mock trial teams recently advanced to the semifinal rounds at the William W. Daniel National Invitational Mock Trial Competition in Atlanta, Ga., and the California Attorney for Criminal Justice Trial Advocacy Competition in Los Angeles, Calif.
The California team included Jessica Harbeson of Haymarket, Va., James Lee of Chicago, Ill., Josh Slater of Davison, Mich., and Scott Goldman of West Bloomfield, Mich. They defeated teams from the Chapman University School of Law and the University of Connecticut School of Law, advancing from 30 teams to the final four teams before being defeated by the University of Wisconsin Law School team in a split decision in a semifinal round.
The Daniel team consisted of Elizabeth Ribby of Holt, Mich., Rachel Madden of Pella, Iowa, Trevor Reaves of Daytona Beach, Fla., and Patrick King of Alton, Ill. In preliminary rounds, Ribby was twice voted best advocate. King also was voted best advocate in another preliminary round, and Reaves was voted best cross examiner.
The Daniel team defeated students from the Michigan State University College of Law, Florida Coastal School of Law and Loyola University Chicago School of Law to advance to the semifinals. The team lost a split decision in the semifinal round to a team from the William & Mary Law School.
Ouch! Chapman! UCONN! Michigan State! Loyola Chicago! They all fall to crappy Cooley students! Oh no!
March 2008:
Four Thomas M. Cooley Law School students were recently named champions in the regional round of the American Association for Justice’s Student Trial Advocacy Competition (STAC), for the second straight year, held in Seattle, advancing Cooley to the National Finals.
Reaves and Coe won a unanimous victory in their first trial defeating Brigham Young University’s team. Foster and Bullinger, while suffering initial defeat from the University of Washington, emerged victorious against the University of Seattle and placing both Cooley teams in the final round. In their final round, Reaves and Coe prevailed over the University of Montana. Foster and Bullinger finished with a win over Lewis and Clark University advancing Cooley to the national finals.
Oops! Brigham Young! Univ. of Wash! Univ. of Seattle! Univ. of Montana! Lewis and Clark! They topple before students from America’s Most Embarrassing Law School!
March 2007:
The Cooley Law School mock trial team of Sabrina Bell, Jonathan Richey, Chad Young and Scott Goldman captured the Seattle Region Championship of the American Association of Justice Student Trial Advocacy Competition March 4, and will travel to New Orleans to compete in the National Finals from March 29-April 1.
The Cooley group beat teams from Barry University, Louisiana State University, the University of Montana, Brigham Young University, and Hamline University to capture the Seattle title. The Cooley team tried five cases in one weekend, winning every trial unanimously except for the championship round. Out of 15 votes, only one judge voted for another team.
The sky is falling! Barry! Louisiana State! Montana! Brigham! Hamline! And, 14 out of 15 judges voted for…wait…Cooley?!? It’s a conspiracy!!
February 2007:
Cooley Law School’s moot court team consisting of students Susannah Meyer, Russ Kavalhuna, and Mike Dean, made it into the “Elite Eight” Jan. 31 in the National Moot Court Competition National Final Rounds in New York City.
On the way to their top eight finish, Cooley’s team bested teams from the University of Oklahoma, Vanderbilt University, and the University of California-Hastings law schools. Students from 157 law schools across the country competed in 14 regional competitions in November 2006. This Cooley team was a regional finalist, and another Cooley team consisting of Jennifer Dixon, Jennifer Marshall, and Danielle (Sunny) Matz, wrote the best Petitioner’s Brief in the regional competition.
Could it be true? Oklahoma, Vanderbilt, and California-Hastings all following behind Cooley??
That’s all I really have to say. Those of you from the “best” law schools out there simply take offense to someone challenging your entitlement. But, that’s too bad. Cooley leads by results, not reputation. Jealous, much?
At first I thought this was an April Fools post…. The logic of post is faulty. Simply because some members of a (massive) law community have succeeded at various events (over several years) is not proof of a top school. Those select individuals may succeed in professional careers, but it doesn’t negate hard facts like 150 LSAT (50%) , 3.0 GPA , and starting private salary of $51,000 …. at a cost of $32,000 yearly, probably topping $100,000 in debt after 3 years. This whole “quality of education” is a farce that Cooley uses to attract gullible college grads.
No doubt, Cooley is not a prestigious high ranked school, it has its flaws. However, the post noted above does speak to the education provided. A person is not born knowing the law, it is taught. The above posts are a reflection of the school and as such provide an example of the quality and sample of the product the school produces. Congrats Cooley students! There is no better feeling than the underdog rising to the top!
Cooley is not rising to the top, it is just embarrassing itself through dangerously false claims and half truths.
Nor do the random assertions [on the internet] of individual achievement prove school produces good quality lawyers.
Nor do the claims that Cooley placed in a few national competitions hold much water, hell my school does that with only ten percent of the massive student body at Cooley.
You Cooley people just keep using poor metrics to justify why you attended the least sought after law school in the country. Not only that, but you somehow made it into a conspiracy, crazy.
I’m so glad you made the comment “This whole “quality of education” is a farce that Cooley uses to attract gullible college grads”.
So you just basically stated that quality of education is not as important as the schools name/brand, which will get you a six figure income after graduation. So your sole purpose of getting a legal education is money now? That’s not a good reason for attending law school, but I guess it would be someone who doesn’t value hard work (if the shoe fits).
LOL!!!! I ABSOULUTELY love how u have addressed the “nay” sayers, the critics, and the skeptics! The whole time I was reading ur comment, I was applaudeding, delightfully laughing, and saying “…that’s it baby, come on w/ the F.A.C.T.S, up in this piece!!! Huh?!!!! LOVE IT!!! If I wasn’t already considering Cooley Law school for my choice of gainning a GREAT
It betrays a deep inability to critically reason when you assert that the moderate success by a very few students in an arbitrary moot court competition accurately discerns the quality of the school & education. Tamara, everything in your post is outright ignorant. From the random capitalization, to absurd award of “addressing critics” (which did not occur), to the acceptance of those impotent facts. Applauding the deficient argument is utterly appalling.
What sort of job do you have?
Several points:
(1) The reason for giving specific examples of the many Tier 1 and 2 schools that Cooley students have beaten in anonymous (read: not getting points solely due to your law school’s purported reputation) competitions, over a period of years, is to illustrate that it occurs often at some of the largest, most respected law school competitions in the country.
(2) It’s true – Cooley is the largest law school in the nation. But, what’s that they say? Quality, not quantity? If the Tier 1 and 2 law schools only except the most elite students, then the fact that Cooley is the largest law school should not matter. Cooley’s students should simply not consistently beat the “better” law schools’ students. But, they do.
(3) “Those select individuals may succeed in professional careers….” Don’t worry, we will. I took the February 2009 Michigan Bar Exam. For that exam, Cooley scored second highest with bar passage out of six law schools in the state. The only school that beat Cooley, with a 100% bar passage rate, was U of M…and they had one student take (and pass) that exam. The point of attending law school is to learn enough to pass a state’s bar exam and practice. Cooley grads are doing just that…and we’re beating most other law schools doing so. So, your (attempted) point about our LSAT score, GPA, and starting salary information is moot.
(4) Finally, if you want to discuss “‘quality of education’ being a ‘farce’ that schools ‘use to attract gullible college grads,’” lets do that. Every year, thousands of college grads across the country, armed with their newly received LSAT scores, grab the latest issue of US News’ Law School Rankings. They quickly flip through the tables and mark down the “best schools” they have the chance of getting into with their LSAT and GPA. Most of them don’t care about where the school is, or what it is known for (or not known for). Those students just want to get into the most prestigious school they can. They may not know a thing about the law school; all they know is that US News ranks it highly, and that’s good enough. Off go the applications.
The reason students like you take such offense to Cooley is because the school flouts the very system that you hold so sacred (the US News rankings) and creates its own. Rather than accepting the lot and station bestowed upon it, Cooley makes a new listing (which, more than likely, the school that YOU went to is no where near the top on) and ranks itself as an excellent school. Then, to add insult to injury, Cooley students attend regional and national competitions and demonstrate consistently that the US News Tier System means nothing. In fact, if you’re so concerned about LSAT scores, you will discover that the LSAT score is merely a predictor of first-year law student success, and has nothing to do with the quality of attorney that student will be once out of school.
The saddest thing is, you and your progeny that constantly complain about Cooley simply do it out of fear. You’re afraid that a no-name, Tier 4 law school is challenging the lies that US News sold (and you all bought). This unknown school is topping bar passage rates in its state and hanging students from the “best” schools out to dry in competition after competition. And, that’s frightening to all of you. Because, at the end of the day, what makes US News rank your schools so highly are their reputations. And, if an underdog school like Cooley can expose those reputations for being hollow, then along with that reputation, your schools’ rankings will fall. That would be horrible, because, after all, the reason you attended those “excellent, top schools” that you did was because a magazine told you to.
Now, tell me more about the “whole ‘quality of education’…farce that [law schools use] to attract gullible college grads.” In the end, no one would know better than you.
Cooley Grad:
The fact that you wrote except instead of accept is proof enough. To take building size into account for quality of education and make that equal to grades, LSAT, etc… is a joke.
Cooley Only Wants Money :
Your only attack is that “Cooley Grad” typed one wrong homophone. This shows your true ignorance and inability to argue/debate your point. I sure hope you’re not a lawyer.
You sort of sound like you are in a cult. Sort of like a scientologist – “they” are all out to keep you down, and only you know the “truth” about the “system.”
Has it ever occured to you that perhaps you are part of the “Cooley” cash generation machine? I hear Cooley is opening a new campus in Tampa! I bet it’s sunny down there! How’d they afford such insanely aggressive expansion?
Why are they the largest law school in the country? They aren’t a J.D. mill????
I don’t want to get in the middle of this because really, who cares, but this needs to be pointed out. Bar passage rate is an awful way to compare law schools.
In any kind of ranking system, continuous variables are preferable to discrete variables because they lend to better differentiation. Among discrete variables, binary variables are the worst. One school may have a very high rate of passage, but most of its grads barely passed. Another school may have a slightly lower rate, but with many of its students blowing the test away. That kind of detail doesn’t show up on a simple variable like bar passage rate.
Variables like GPA and LSAT are much more conducive to analysis like this. It may be affected by the self-perpetuating reputation problem you identify, but that risk is worth it because nothing else is suitable.
It’s the same reason why you don’t rank colleges by graduation rate. If you did, then a lot of local state schools would rank higher than the ivy leagues. But the point of college is to graduate and get a degree, right…?
I kind of disagree with this one. The minimum of the bar passage rates scale is important for graduates. Most (though I suppose not all) graduates will want to practice or pass the bar. This figure for at least the credential is the bottom line. In a perfect world other factors are important, but frankly, this one should be the coveted one of all the others. Then you can start looking at tuition and other factors.
If you know anything about statistics then over time these minimum rates help us. We can expect that the true population of bar takers will over time fit into an expected bell-curve (most statisticians know this concerning the social sciences and population parameters for groups of people). Some states take advantage of this when their Bars reassess the cutoff for what constitutes “passing.” Anyway, for that state we still only need the minimum. Most scores will fall into 65% of the bell-shaped curve, the others at the very low end or at the higher end. Statistically speaking, these scores over time will represent that schools potential. Some research shows that these correlate highly with LSAT scores. Perhaps this is also why when most law schools start up they can boast a 100% bar passage rate but then see it dwindle a bit as the school becomes “established.” One would suspect that they only brought in students with a high LSAT score to later make this claim, and then as the school became accredited became more “diverse” with the range of LSAT scores for those admitted.
To get back on track, in general, the average potential student needs to suspect that if they fall into the range of LSAT scores accepted as reported by that school, then their chances will correlate to the reported bar passage rates for students from that school. The only problem is we can only know the average since schools do not report the passage rates per state passage rate. This is sad and would be more useful, but does make the data more generalizable, especially since schools tend to report the in-state passage rate and then then national average (depends, I think even Cooley does this).
I can hear someone already saying that not everyone will be “average.” To them I say, well, what’s fine, but most people will be statistically average, and if you’re above average then go to a Tier one school, and if you’re not, then consider yourself at least average, and be honest with yourself about your chances. My expectation is that if you get accepted then that school feels that you will be a success. Then again, “some” might be motivated to let you enroll on the basis that you will be paying tuition. Correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t Cooley get sued for issues related to this in the past? (I remember some news articles but don’t know the final outcome, I’m assuming they settled out of court).
Bottom line: statistically speaking we can have faith in the procedure that reports the bar passage rates and use it as an indicator of one’s average chance of passing the bar. We don’t care so much about the percentage number itself, nor the level of low pass to high pass. All we should care about is if School A gives Student X a better chance at becoming a certified lawyer than School B. Of course, this changes if all you care about is getting an education and never really planning to pay back the money.
“All we should care about is if School A gives Student X a better chance at becoming a certified lawyer than School B.”
Well, if this is all you care about, Cooley’s the school for you. I suspect no school does a better job of preparing people for passing a bar exam as its curriculum works from this point backwards, and the bar exam is front and center of every activity.
I suspect that if Cooley had virtually any other school’s students it would have a better bar passage rate. For example let’s say Cooley had Michigan’s students, so I’d guess that these new “Cooley” students would have a spectacular bar passage rate. It may even exceed Michigan’s current bar passage rate because these students would now be educated in a system specifically geared toward bar passage. Similarly, if Michigan had Cooley’s students and kept its current curriculum, I imagine its “new” bar passage rate would drop, perhaps even below Cooley’s real life passage rates because, again, these real-life Cooley students wouldn’t be in a system designed with bar passage as its main goal.
Would Michigan then be a 4th-tier school because of it’s new, extremely poor bar passage rate? Would Cooley now be a top-ten school because of its new excellent one?
“Of course, this changes if all you care about is getting an education and never really planning to pay back the money.”
This assumes that passing the bar has a very meaningful relationship with the work that lawyers perform and what will keep them employed. I don’t believe the bar exam does. In fact, I don’t recall anyone ever asking for what score I received on the bar exam, which if it did, I’m would think people would have cared enough to ask.
What does the bar exam do? It is an exam that tests certain skills, foremost, memorizing a large quantity of material. I suspect many people that went to top law schools fail the bar simply because of not mastering this skill, or they may have already been employed and not had the time memorize it. This is why these people may do well on the LSAT but not the Bar, because you don’t need to memorize anything for the LSAT. Of course, this is why you must memorize everything at Cooley and an example of how that school does a better job at preparing its students to pass the bar. They’ve had three years of memorization practice. And so on.
I do wonder what all the Cooley grads who can’t pass the bar end up doing, though.
Actually, no. And your continuous v. discrete variables analysis is not even wrong. Not to mention your final assumption that ivy league schools should, naturally, rank higher than state schools.
It’s really better to use the bar passage rate information rather than the absolute number of passers. Looking at only the total number of passers gives you less information. Each school produces a pool of examinees; the passage rate tells you how well the school did at preparing those students for the bar. However, schools produce differently sized pools, you cannot directly compare them with exacting precision. But the higher each’s pool, the more accurate it is as a “true” measure of the school’s effectiveness of squirting out students who can pass the bar.
Take it from a Cooley grad. Two bachelors of science degrees from a USNWR #1 school, one of those in mathematics. Full scholarship at Cooley. Passed three different bar exams in three different states, each on the first try. No BAR/BRI or review required for any (and I walked into Massachusetts’ bar exam cold.) Also, a registered patent attorney. Since graduating, I’ve won millions of dollars in settlements and judgments. (My first case out of law school was a a $250,000 settlement.)
You see, son, law school itself is a joke. Anyone who’s passed the bar knows this. Cooley does a good job of teaching you the law and how to practice it. That’s why 2/3 of the curriculum is mandatory–so every Cooley student has exposure to secured transactions, federal taxation, appellate writing, remedies, evidence (oddly still not required by the ABA), etc. And why every student must complete a required externship.
I remember one of the first days I was in law school and had received my Lexis-Nexis password. I recall reading an article there written by a recent Harvard law grad about what he learned in school. “I learned how to think like a laaawyer.” Ugh, what a nauseatingly masturbatory statement. Either you learned how to be a lawyer, or your school failed you. Thinking like a lawyer is relatively pointless if you can’t pass the bar. (Unless you’re going to go work in, say, high finance or business.)
What does Cooley do? It sets some pretty high standards as far as course work. The curriculum is very difficult. If you fail, you’re out. If you miss two classes, you fail. This is unlike other schools that will keep pass failure-students around so as not to jeopardize their precious USNWR ranking. Cooley doesn’t care. Do the work, or leave. There will be no hand-holding or grade massaging. And you better pass the bar. Or else.
The rankings? They’re a joke, sure. But at least it’s a funny one. And it’s funny because nearly every ABA law school’s Dean (some years ago now) signed on to a memorandum opposing simplistic numerical rankings like USNWR. Of course, most incoming law school students are woefully unsophisticated “education consumers” and have their preconceived, pop notions of what law school and law practice should be like. I’m chalking a good deal of the vitriol here up to that.
Right? Wrong. Not surprisingly, I’m going to have to disagree with you.
You contradict yourself. When US News refers to percentiles concerning GPA, that is the undergraduate GPA it is referring to. Can you explain to how someone’s undergraduate GPA correlates with their ability to practice law?
Not only that, but not all undergraduate instituations are created equal by any means. I went to a very difficult undergrad where I slept about four hours a night during the week due to the number of papers and exams I had. At the same time, my closest friends were scattered at other undergraduate schools where they, themselves, stated it was an easier program. Not only that, but not all undergraduate majors are the same difficulty. Is someone’s 3.9 GPA in Art History the same as someone’s 3.9 GPA in Civil Engineering? Abiding by your argument, all schools and all majors are treated the same and weighed equally. That is nonsensical.
LSAT scores. The Law School Admissions Council (LSAC) states that the LSAT is a predictor of first-year grades. That’s all. Even if one were to argue that the LSAT score directly correlated to all three years of law school grades, even without any prediction error, the argument would still be a poor one. Just because someone graduates from law school with a 4.0 GPA does not mean they will make a good attorney.
The worst part of your argument is that “bar passage rate is an awful way to compare law schools.” I honestly do not understand how that can be your assertion, but if it is, ok. The reason bar passage rates are the BEST way to compare law schools is because all of the law schools in any given state(s) are compared directly to one another.
Law School 1: 59% Pass Rate
Law School 2: 64% Pass Rate
Law School 3: 89% Pass Rate
Which is the better school? One’s undergraduate GPA has nothing to do with the ability to pass the bar. One’s undergraduate GPA is a result of combining the grades received in all sorts of classes over four years: math, science, history, etc. Bar passage rates, quite oppositely, are only the result of how well one learned the law.
To recap, equally weighting undergraduate GPAs, as US News does and as you argue for, is ridiculous. Arguing that one’s LSAT score has a direct correlation on whether they will be a successful attorney, as you argue, is just as dumb. The best way to compare law schools is by bar passage rate and number of trophies brought home by student competition.
If the Tier 1 and 2 law schools are so fantastic, they should win every competition they go to. If Tier 1 law schools are so great, they should not consistently be getting beaten by a Tier 4 school.
If Tier 1 and 2 law schools are so amazing, their students should pass the bar without fail. After all, the bar is just another exam (like the LSAT). If they are good at taking exams, and they went to the “best” law schools, they should lead their states in bar passage rates. But, often times they do not.
Face it. The US News Tier System is horribly flawed. Maybe all of this anti-Cooley animosity is just due to fact that you guys fell for it and Cooley grads didn’t.
Cooley kicks ass in bar passage and it kicks ass in national competitions. THAT is how you meansure an excellent law school. Your argument to use LSAT and UNDERGRADUATE GPA to measure a law school? Dumb. Those two measures existed BEFORE a law student ever even gets into a law school. How could they then be used to predict the worth of a school the scores had no affiliation with? Answer? They cannot.
Cooley has had terrible bar passage for many many many years. Remember, hypothetically if Cooley has an 75% bar passage rate in Michigan but school X has a 90% in New York, they are not directly comparable. Stop comparing apples and oranges, *in Michigan Cooley consistently falls well below the bar average*.
Second, seriously national competitions? You just made up this fact, accounted for no possible variables like the enormous student body (aka so someone always competes at any event), use this a proof. How are you Cooley people so completely adverse to intelligent conversation. Every time you post something I have to correct you.
Third, predictors like GPA and LSAT are good indicators of performance of a student. It takes a low level of thinking to believe that putting such people together does not create a learning environment which greatly increase the breadth of learning.
All these comments you post are the typical of “1 Step” thinkers where you can’t analyze something beyond what is on the face.
Wow! I’m amazed at how much time you’ve spend hating on Cooley. I can understand a Cooley grad investing time and energy bragging up Cooley’s reputation but the effort you’ve spent to drag them down is just incredible.
Could it be the you’re threatened by the shear number of Cooley grads that will be coming into the profession? Folks who came out of undergrad and the LSAT as underdogs and have stuck it out to at a school that washes out a large percentage of their students it year. Cooley grads my not be the best students heading into law school but they sure appear to work their asses off to graduate. Why spend the hours ripping on them for that hard work?
While the Moot competition system certainly has it’s flaws at least it provides some useful feedback on the quality of education the school has provided, where as incoming LSAT, UGPA and other factors speak only to the quality of students prior to attending law school.
I may not be a Cooley grad, but I can’t wrap my mind around all the Cooley haters out there with extra time to write multiple posts.
Your “National Competition” theory is equally flawed. You have to take in to account that people who place at Moot competitions aren’t always going to turn out to be good lawyers themselves….
Also, let’s not forget that some schools don’t send their best and brightest to these things because those students may be working on other projects… working in clinical programs… doing law review…. etc.
Look, I gave you my analysis based on what kinds of variables are statistically most relevant for constructing rankings. You ignored that and re-stated your belief that a single binary variable (bar passage) is the best indicator and that’s fine, you’re entitled to think that. I don’t really care to convince you otherwise. You are clearly very happy with your Cooley education and why would I want to make you any less satisfied?
Your extreme responses here seem to shout inferiority complex, but maybe that’s just me too.
“Your extreme responses here seem to shout inferiority complex, but maybe that’s just me too.”
…that along with the final exam essay question answer responses. A legitimate product does not require that long of an explanation or this much justification because it is able to stand on its own merit.
*yawn* Lawyers make me tired.
Speaking of ignoring things and restating them, the additional variable I noted was a school’s consistent performance in regional and national competitions, rather than bar passage alone.
And, I did not ignore your “analysis based on what kinds of variables are statistically most relevant for constructing rankings;” rather, I simply pointed out why I thought they were incorrect and foolish.
Finally, if you want to speak of inferiority complexes, you may wish to conduct some serious introspection. The reason that so much anti-Cooley sentiment exists (your contribution included) is because law students and lawyers who attended “the best” law schools are clearly threatened by Cooley. Truly, if people honestly did not care, like you assert you do not, they would not waste their time attacking the school.
But, don’t worry about it. I’m sure the 2010 US News Rankings will be out soon enough, and you and your progeny can hurriedly flip through the magazine and quickly reassure yourself that, regardless of how your schools compare in bar passage and competition performance, you ARE the intelligentsia of law. Why? Because…a magazine told you so.
National Competitions should count for 0.
Those competitions go on your resume as filler to supplement having gone to TMC.
Maybe we should count all my little league trophies.
Your whole law school is a joke . I actually looked up the bar passage statistics with the ABA , heres the link:
http://officialguide.lsac.org/SearchResults/SchoolPage.aspx?sid=151
“”
Jurisdiction Takers Passers Pass % State % Diff %
Michigan 261 210 80.46 86.08 –5.62
“”
That is a minus 5.62 under state average. According to ILRG these are the passage rates from 2007 going backwards. (average is 78.17). Always under the state average.
State overall bar passage rate: 89% 74% 74% 76% 76% 80%
Also, BAR passage rates is not the end all test of the quality of a lawyer or school. Sure, its very probative, but schools inflate this number by offering or strongly encouraging students to take prep. That’s why you balance certain factors and weigh them accordingly , in a reasonable formula.
I just want to point out that I loudly laughed in library when you said ” “the best” law schools are clearly threatened by Cooley”
EDIT: When Cooley Grad keeps making this my data isn’t “current”, he is citing one specific BAR exam that in February, which is generally off cycle, has only 180 takers, and where Cooley barely beat the average in 2010 by a slight margin. When utterly poor information is presented such as this “current” bar passage rates, it is borderline lying.
But on a serious note, when you bring up these numbers Cooley Grad you look entirely foolish – like you have never taken a basic stats course in your life. I am embarrassed that I have to explain that this outlier February Bar statistic is largely useless. The best part is that it isn’t just anti-intelligence with Cooley Grad, he got the data from Thomas Cooley website which predominantly displays this “achievement”! Haha, what a bunch of clowns.
Get a life, why don’t you!!! outside of Cooley, gosh! spewing hate and fear……
http://officialguide.lsac.org/SearchResults/SchoolPage_PDFs/ABA_LawSchoolData/ABA1796.pdf
lol
I just had to check. I compared Thomas Cooley with the schools above and below it in rankings, according to Thomas Cooley rankings. These are the bar passage rates for the most common exam taken (the highest number keeps things like 100% from one taker from happening):
96% (NY) – Harvard
94% (NY) – Georgetown
96% (NY) – NYU
99% (NY) – Virginia
88% (TX) – U Texas
96% (NY) – Michigan
96% (IL) – Northwestern
95% (NY) – Columbia
92% (NY) – Yale
94% (NY) – George Washington
98% (MN) – U of Minnesota
80% (MI) – Thomas Cooley
89% (NY) – Fordham
86% (CA) – UCLA
88% (NY) – American
94% (NY) – U Penn
The Cooley Delusion
(but also its relevant to compare each school to the State Bar Passage Average)
Let me make a couple of quick points here. First, in response to Cooley Grad’s second post on 4/1/2010, in your second paragraph you use the word “except” instead of “accept.” No quicker way to own your school than to flub the English language. Badly.
Second, your primary argument seems to be that because some Cooley students beat students from more prominent national schools in a few moot court tournaments, it follows that Cooley must be better in some regards than the more prominent schools. Except (note the proper usage) moot court tournaments at most national schools are left for the “second tier” students (or worse) who didn’t make law review, while top students at Cooley have to do everything they can, including both moot court AND law review, to get a sniff in the job market.
Nobody in their right mind pursues both moot court and law review at a national school because future employers, and more importantly notable federal and state judges, couldn’t give a crap about Moot Court competition. Reason being is that moot court so undervalues writing as to be utterly worthless as a predictor of future success, and even for those who go on to appellate advocacy, moot court is a poor analog to real practice. If you’re a top student at a national school, you swing for law review, get on that, and then pour everything you can into your class ranking. Moot court is a cipher and takes away from the more important pursuit of getting published and moving up the class ranking, thus giving you access to top employers.
You want a more apt comparison of the schools? Compare the after-graduation success of those students in the same relative class ranking (i.e. top 5%, top 20%, top 50%, etc.). Or compare the entire body of students in a metric like bar passage rates, on which Cooley is ranked as the worst of all Michigan law schools on the state’s bar exam.
But to be sure, comparing the top tier students at Cooley, who must do moot court AND law review for resume purposes, to the middle tier (or lower) students from national school, who must do moot court because they couldn’t make law review, isn’t even an apples-to-oranges comparison.
Of course, you are using circular reasoning.
Cooley has a “poor” reputation, and therefore it is harder for grads outside of Michigan (where Cooley’s reputation is more ACCURATE and FAMILIAR) to get jobs. Then, you use the poor job prospects (relatively speaking) outside of Michigan to bludgeon Cooley’s reputation.
How about we ask employers of Cooley grads their opinions instead of basing reps on subjective criteria and popularity contests? Cooley does make the very valid argument that if NFL teams drafted players the way law firms hire law grads, they would pass over tons of great players based purely on the reputation of the school.
If someone graduated from Cooley in the top ten percent of their class and passed the bar on the first try, I’d be far more willing to hire them than some middle tier Harvard grad who probably smoked pot his whole time in school.
That’s great news! I’m sure Cooley grads all over will rejoice–someone wants to hire them. Keep us posted when you actually do start hiring Cooley grads rather than simply talk about hiring them.
And the Cooley makes you work argument is horse shit. I’ve never had to do less work in my life than when I was at Cooley. In fact, I had so much free time to play XBOX I ended up with a repetitive stress injury.
Cooley’s ranking is odd (borderline insane), but “Cooley Grad” does make a few good points. She (or he) dominated the author of this piece and all comments. Why not prove her wrong?
[A few good points but then "dominated the author" and "all comments"]. Wait, what? Seriously?
Why not prove her wrong? Since using logic and empirical evidence arn’t persuasive, I declare the other side has a weak argument and mine is superior.
He just keeps spouting out these odd claims straight from the Cooley website where once you fact check they are false or highly disingenuous (see comments about that outlier February bar exam).
Are the main themes of this thread really inferiority complexes and school rankings?
Michael Kraemer – You seem to cling tightly to the fact that the LSAC notes that Cooley, a Tier 4 law school, has a bar passage rate that is LESS than the state average where the school is located. According to you, this fact means “Your whole law school is a joke.”
Ok. If the fact that a law school’s bar passage rates are LOWER than the state’s average bar passage rate means that the law school is a joke, lets use your argument to show that the US News’ tiering system is truly flawed.
US NEWS TOP 100 LAW SCHOOLS WITH BAR PASSAGE RATES BELOW STATE AVERAGE (according to the LSAC):
University of Arkansas
Brooklyn
University at Buffalo
Case Western
Catholic University
University of Denver
Gonzaga University
Hofstra University
Loyola University Chicago
Northeastern University
University of Oregon
Penn State University
Seattle University
University of Utah
US NEWS TIER 3 LAW SCHOOLS WITH BAR PASSAGE RATES BELOW STATE AVERAGE (according to the LSAC):
University of Arkansas at Little Rock
City University of New York
University of Montana
University of Saint Thomas
Southwestern
Syracuse University
Vermont
West Virginia University
William Mitchell
University of Wyoming
Wow, it sure is refreshing to see all of these “better” law schools that are also “a joke.” It’s a good thing that the US News tiering system REALLY DOES WORK! It identifies the BEST law schools in America! Fourteen percent of “America’s Best Law Schools” (the Top 100) have bar passage rates BELOW the state average where the school sits. Good thing all these students rely solely on US News to tell them where to go!
Michael Kraemer states: “[Cooley has] a minus 5.62 under state average. According to ILRG these are the passage rates from 2007 going backwards.”
2007 passage rates – great argument. CURRENT LSAC bar passage rates that are lower than Cooley’s -5.62 state average:
Case Western – Top 100 School: -7.5% below state average
University of Oregon – Top 100 School: -6.0% below state average
Southwestern – Tier 3 School: -7.8% below state average
Syracuse – Tier 3 School: -6.4% below state average
Vermont – Tier 3 School: -6.1% below state average
Now, for some additional CURRENT statistics. I mentioned that I took the Michigan Bar Exam in February of 2009. Here’s how the overall (fist time takers and otherwise) passage rates looked for all Michigan law schools post appeal:
University of Michigan – Top 100 School: 100% passage
Michigan State – Tier 3 School: 69% passage
Wayne State – Tier 3 School: 74% passage
Cooley – Tier 4 School: 79% passage
Detroit-Mercy – Tier 4 School: 68% passage
Ave Maria – Tier 4 School: 60% passage
Wow! Cooley’s February 2009 overall passage rates in Michigan beat the Tier 3 (and Tier 4) schools? How could that be? After all, the title of this thread is “Cooley Law School Is An Embarrassment.” Are the schools Cooley beat embarrassments, too? How about the Top 100 and Tier 3 law schools above, which have fallen BELOW their states’ average bar passage rates? Are they embarrassments? We should develop threads for those schools too. I wouldn’t want them feeling left out.
Wow. Those US News Rankings are irrefutable! I’m so glad that I, too, mindlessly listened to a magazine tell me the best law schools in America. Oh, wait. I didn’t.
1. Each state bar is different, the comparison you did is generally inapplicable.
2. You are manipulating data by using an outlier (Feb Bar) as a fact of how Cooley performs.
But its OK, I see where you got this random stat:
http://www.cooley.edu/overview/barresults.html
Why not use all the relevant data showing consistent poor performance?
http://www.ilrg.com/rankings/law/view.php/100
http://officialguide.lsac.org/SearchResults/SchoolPage.aspx?sid=151
Why not show me something convincing other than a quote from the Cooley website?
See I don’t need to write a monstrous paragraph to dispute what you say.
Showing that there are several Top 100 Law Schools that are below their state average bar pass rates completely rebuts your point that Cooley is a joke because their pass rates are below Michigan’s state average. Manipulating data? You’re the one who weighs so heavily on statistics, yet when someone throws some at you, all you can say is “the comparison you did is generally inapplicable.” You’re an absolute joke. The only viable point you made is that of the stat of Michigan’s February Bar.
Michael- Looks like you need a hobby or a life.
Let’s keep in mind all of those other schools you just listed aren’t trying to hold themselves out as the now #2 ranked lawschool in all the land.
@Cooley Grad: So if I understand you correctly, you picked some random years (not to mention you included February which provides a minuscule sample of bar-takers) and compared non-identical state bar passage rates (NY, OH, IL, &c) to conclude…what? That Cooley is in good company with a bunch of other terrible law schools that no one should attend?
I didn’t write the article, but I suspect that you misunderstand the “embarrassment” accusation, Cooley Grad. It isn’t embarrassing to go to a law school that isn’t top tier, and it isn’t embarrassing to be a law school that isn’t top tier. It is pretty absurd to be a bottom-level law school by any objective measure, yet still proclaim yourself to be a top-tier school. I’m not sure I would pick “embarrassing” as much as “hilarious.”
There are lots of 3rd and 4th tier schools, but to my knowledge, yours is the only one that claims to be better than the real top tiers. Your defense of this claim is really odd.
Who takes the February Bar exam? Not many people, and certainly not a representative sample of the school. Didn’t you point out that Michigan only had one taker? Why in the world would you prefer data from that single event over data compiled over several Bar exams?
eh, it actually is pretty embarrassing to go to Cooley, I’m sorry but schools like that are what’s wrong with the legal education today. Cranking out law students with no hope of getting a decent job after racking up 100k in debt, all while feasting on their absurd tuition rates and self proclaimed worth.
30k + new law graduates each year is absurd
D. Manes- Obsessed with putting people down much?
So Cooley fails pretty epically on first-time Bar passage rates (averaged, not just in one February exam) and overall Bar passage rates. It’s right where you’d expect a 4th tier school to be and shockingly not where you’d expect a top-15 school to be. What about another variable? I thought about employment. The data are available for employment 9 months after graduation and it fits with your logic about what the purpose of law school is. In fact, it is probably a more practical purpose of law school to get its graduates employed than to just get them passing some test.
The unemployment rate for Cooley grads 9 months after graduation is 15.4%. Data is missing for a further 11%.
Compare that with the University of Pittsburgh (where Mike and I are right now). Pitt grads have an unemployment rate of 3.3% 9 months after graduation. Data is only missing for 1%. By the way, Pitt doesn’t claim to be a top-15 school.
Compare that with the University of Minnesota, the school right above Cooley, according to Cooley. 0% unemployment with data missing for 1.4%.
Compare that with Fordham, the school right below Cooley, according to Cooley. 1% unemployment, data missing for 0.6%.
So how about it? Is employment/unemployment data a fair comparison?
15.4% unemployment 9 months after graduation for Cooley!!?? Holy shit, man. Potentially several more percent out of the 11% who didn’t provide data!?! Damn.
@ Cooley Grad
You logic is heavily impaired. The BAR stats I provided with link by David demonstrate that over a period of years Cooley consistent results under the state average. If a single test date sees a marginally higher score, it is what we call an outlier. But since I just read David’s comment I see what you did, picking a specific bar test then using it to advocate. Using an outlier as a fair presentation of facts?
I also think its funny that you cavalierly compare schools in different states without accounting for the numerous variables… like looking at scores over a period of years. Let me just spell this out because you guys are not getting it – MANIPULATION OF FACTS AND STATS. Just like Cooley’s silly ranking system, the arguments you make are totally unsupported when scrutinized.
Also, this accusation of Mindlessly Reading US News is pretty freaking annoying – like Glenn Beck parroting the same line ad nauseum. Most people use it as a guide to match their needs for a legal education with the correct schools – the consolidation of objective considerations and particular school strengths is pretty helpful. My friend landed at Cooley, she never experienced choosing law schools because she didn’t get in anywhere else, I feel this also may be a common theme.
Thomas Cooley is an embarrassing institution because the administration openly advocates a ranking system that is outrageously anti-intellectual. As for people attending Cooley, I don’t hold the same malice – you are not in control of what your administration does and it is always admirable grow intellectually through law school.
I was just accepted to Cooley and I live in Ohio. I am not familiar with Michigan or the quality of this school. All of the reviews I have read have been derogatory. I am eager to start law school and believe that I can redeem myself despite having a low L-Sat score. On their homepage there are success stories listed – so how does anyone attribute this with the otherwise slander on this institution? I guess I’m seeking some un-biased feedback. Thanks for any info you can provide.
The claim you want is libel and the defense is truth.
I don’t think anyone is claiming you can not be successful after graduating from a law school. But that isn’t the issue I am discussing in this article.
What you should do is look up ABA statistics and see what factors are important in your case. In fact, I would even recommend picking a copy of US News and checking out what they say – they often have good insight.
I don’t have the stats in front of me, but if you not getting scholarship figure a debt load of around 130k. Pair that with average private employment at around (I think) $45,000 a year. So I would say looking at the average, if you want money then this doesn’t seem like the best option. Then again you might graduate first in your class and come out earning far more. There is also nothing wrong with going into some type of public service or non-profit career and do loan forgiveness. In fact, it might even make sense to go this route. Just make sure you come to an informed decision.
As another option, Cooley seems to have many people transfer out after the first year… 183 out and 8 transfer in… I suppose go for a year, if you do well transfer to a school with stats that better suit you.
Stacey- Don’t let these “haters” turn you off. They just don’t have a life and feel “superior” to everyone else. I am a Cooley grad and have had a successful career and have Cooley to thank for my great education.
First of all, I admire Cooley Grad for your tenacious defense of our school. I do agree that Cooley gets a worse reputation than it deserves, but I accept the reality that Cooley does not remotely compare with any of the top schools, however you want to rank them. I fully agree with those who observe that Cooley’s self-serving ranking system a complete joke. However, I also believe that its unique program makes it difficult to compare with other schools.
I went to Cooley because I was offered a big scholarship based on my LSAT score and because I could work full-time and go to school year-round right in my hometown of Grand Rapids (by the way, Cooley did not have to sue to get their satellite campuses fully accredited; they sued to try to expedite the process and lost).
What I want to say is that you can get a very good legal education at Cooley. Its size and low acceptance standards creates a very unique situation. The most obvious effect is its horrible ratings. It accepts students that simply don’t belong in law school. What happens though is that most of those students don’t graduate (thus the high attrition rate), which I think this is a refelction of Cooley’s challenging curriculum. You have to be a good student to graduate from Cooley. The downside of course is that Cooley is making lots of money off of students it knows don’t belong there and won’t graduate. The plus side of this, if you will, is that Cooley is financially loaded and has the resources to provide a very good education. The professors are well-paid with crazy benefits, allowing Cooley to draw a very good faculty. Its facilities, clinics, and related programs are equally outstanding, and this truly benefits good students in many ways. Cooley’s performance in national competitions reflects that, and the bar passage rate, while admittedly horrid 4-5 years ago, is on par with your average school over the past 2-3 years.
Nonetheless, your diploma will still say Cooley on it, and that name just doesn’t get any respect outside of Michigan. So if you’re thinking about going to Cooley, you need to know that. It is very real. But if you can get a scholarship, need a flexible schedule, and have some connections to help get your first job, you can get a good legal education and be successful.
I don’t think you can get a top education at Cooley–I know I certainly didn’t. I started there because I lived an hour a way from Lansing, got a 30k/year scholarship, and didn’t even know if I wanted to be a lawyer or a professor. In short, it was a low-risk trial.
What I found was the vast majority of class time was wasted on people who probably didn’t pass the first year (let alone graduate and fail the bar). It was very tedious. And I once had a professor say, when I asked what he thought of the dissent, he said, “Who cares? It’s not the law.” The exams were multiple choice questions and outline dumping. A lot of professors would even give you outlines.
Cooley is not geared toward critical thought, it’s geared for getting people who “appreciate the opportunity” to pass the bar, which is why there are few electives and they are only 2 credits rather than three. If a subject MIGHT be on the bar exam, Cooley will make you take it.
Needless to say, I thanked Cooley for saving me 45k in tuition and transferred to a 1st-tier law school; unfortunatley, Cooley’s official policy is to not cooperate with other law schools and refuses to send them requested information, which can make transferring a hassle.
But once you do leave, you can find out how great law school can really be and how bad Cooley really was. About the only thing I missed were the ubiqutous leather couches (must have that pretentious look).
Wait. So, no other law schools have multi-state style multiple choice questions and law students at other schools don’t dump tehir ouitlines into essays?
ROTFLMFAO!!
What a joke. That’s what law school is. I can’t tell you how many top tier law school grads I’ve met who say that once you get in, you pretty much can coast at those schools — whereas at Cooley they work you hard all 3 years.
Wait. So, no other law schools have multi-state style multiple choice questions and law students at other schools don’t dump their outlines into essays?
ROTFLMFAO!!
What a joke. That’s what law school is. I can’t tell you how many top tier law school grads I’ve met who say that once you get in, you pretty much can coast at those schools — whereas at Cooley they work you hard all 3 years.
I’m going to avoid getting into the minutia of this battle. However, I’d just like to give a tiny little bit of credit to Cooley. I bombed the LSAT 3 years ago and couldn’t touch any tier 4 law school. Consequently, I wound up going to Cooley for my first year before transferring to St John’s. I was so well prepared for exam writing and critical analysis that I excelled at St John’s in my 2L and 3L years; thanks to Cooley. Cooley does a fantastic job building a solid foundation for their first year students. They also have an Intro to Law program that is mandatory for 1L students and forces them to learn how to think and write in a legal context.
All of that being said, I believe Cooley really does disgrace itself by putting out their ridiculous annual ranking publishing. They should just leave that whole scene alone and go on educating students. Also, while there are good students at Cooley, it seems as if all anyone talks about in the first year is transferring. Once the end of first year comes, those who worked and put themselves in position to transfer, do just that. The leftovers tend to move forward with this false arrogance and try to ram Cooley down everyone’s throat because they have to justify the position they’re left in.
Anyone who makes pretend he or she was not trying to transfer out of Cooley within the first year or right after first year, is just plain old lying.
Again, I’m not trying to compare, I’m just trying to shed a little bit of light and honesty on things. I’m sure people will construe this to be something it’s not intended to be. The bottom line is that I’m grateful that Cooley took me in and gave me an opportunity to prove myself so that I could transfer out. Moreover, I credit Cooley for laying the foundation of my legal education, as I think their professors measure up with any of the professors I’ve had at SJU. However, Admin and students should just stop with the incessant efforts to try to combat all of the negative feedback. If they stopped the nonsense with the rankings they put out as well as trying to pick apart the US News rankings, they’d probably be in far better shape and their students would face far less scrutiny.
The Association of American Law Schools commissioned a report, which was completed by Stephen P. Klein, Ph.D. and Laura Hamilton, Ph.D. on whether U.S. News’ Law School Rankings were valid.
Wow. Imagine that. They aren’t.
You can find the whole text of the article here:
http://www.aals.org/reports/validity.html
But, just to toss is out there, I’ll include the report’s “Summary” here.
“U.S. News and World Report uses data on 12 factors to make its annual evaluation of law schools. Two of these factors (ratings by academics and ratings by lawyers and judges) involve subjective judgments of school quality. The other 10 factors are based on objective actuarial data, such as the school’s median LSAT score for beginning students and its bar passage rate. US News uses the 12 factors to rank the top 50 schools and assign the remaining 124 schools to three “tiers” of overall quality (with about 40 schools per tier). US News also publishes the data on each school for a few of the 12 factors.
There are several problems with the US News evaluation system. One of the most important of these is that US News does not consider many factors, such as the educational benefits of attending a certain school or the quality of its faculty, that are just as important as the ones it does include. There also are problems related to the accuracy of the data US News relies on to measure a factor, intentional and unintentional biases in the subjective assessments of school quality, and the use of variables that may foster inappropriate school practices. For example, survey respondents may rate down some schools in order to make their own school look better and schools may try to raise their score on the “rejection rate” factor by encouraging applications from students who have virtually no chance of being admitted. In addition, the methods US News uses to combine the values on different components (such as LSAT scores and undergraduate grades) into an overall factor score (such as for “student selectivity”) does not really result in assigning the components the weight US News says they should carry (and no rationale is provided for its weights). Other concerns relate to whether the persons who respond to the surveys are truly representative of their respective populations and how US News imputed the values for missing data on certain variables.
Statistical analyses of the data that were available to us revealed that virtually all of the differences in the overall ranks among schools could be explained by the combination of two of the US News factors. These factors are student selectivity (which is driven by the school’s median LSAT score) and academic reputation. The other ten factors are superfluous. However, because the US News ranking system inflates small differences in quality among schools, the addition of other factors (and/or slightly changing their weights) could shift a school from the bottom of one broad category of overall quality to the top of another (such as from the second to the third tier). Unfortunately, because of problems with all the factors in the US News system, these changes could just as easily decrease as increase the validity of the overall rankings.”
Michael Kraemer, the above is especially for you. So, in your own words, “let me just spell this out because you guys are not getting it – MANIPULATION OF FACTS AND STATS.” US News uses a “silly ranking system.” And, unfortunately, those of you who try to get into “the best” law school that you can based on what a magazine tells you…well, you guys just drank the Kool Aid.
As for Chaz, the same goes for him. “Anyone who makes pretend he or she was not trying to transfer out of Cooley within the first year or right after first year, is just plain old lying.”
It seems odd to me that so many students are willing to use Cooley as the chance they need – when no other law school will accept them – just to prove themselves and jump ship to “a better” law school (better because U.S. News says so). If Cooley were so good (which it is), why would you jump ship so quickly? The professors aren’t better (you said so yourself), and the programs are fantastic (you also said so). So, why run off? The reason? Because some silly magazine told you it was in your best interest.
Let me tell you another thing. At the end of my first year, I was in the top 13% of the class. I graduated in the top 20% of my class, and I was a Senior Associate Editor on the Law Review. Further, I received my class’s CALI Award for Scholarly Writing. I could have transferred to most law schools. But, like you, I knew that Cooley provided an excellent education. Unlike you, I wasn’t afraid stay at a school I knew was great…just because a magazine told me it was in my best interest to do so.
D. M. Manes’s comments on employability following bar passage don’t prove anything except the status quo: 99% of Harvard and Yale grads are employed within 9 months of graduating. Is that because they really make the best attorneys? Or, is that because the culture of U.S. News persists into the private sector to the point where students who graduated from “the best” schools are guaranteed instant jobs? If that’s the case, which I argue it is, then it doesn’t matter where you graduate in your class, what externships you completed, which awards you received while studying…as long as your LSAT score was good enough to get you in, you have a 99% chance of being employed as soon as you begin looking. That just means that people care only about WHERE you went to school, NOT what you learned or how well you did while there.
Pathetic.
You didn’t include the import conclusion section, sigh.
“”"There are many serious problems with the US News system for evaluating law schools. These problems include concerns about: (1) important aspects of law school quality that are not assessed by US News; (2) the accuracy of the data US News used to create the index values (such as obvious errors in the computation of bar passage rate and failure to control for regional cost of living differences); (3) the effects of chance, multiple interpretations, and systematic biases on survey responses (such as whether respondents are representative of those sent surveys and whether strategic ratings led to some schools receiving a higher or lower rank than they deserved); (4) the methods US News used to handle missing data; and (5) the use of variables that could lead to inappropriate school practices (such as schools raising their “rejection rate” index by encouraging applications from students who have virtually no chance of being admitted).
There also are problems with how the 12 factors are weighted because they do not really carry the weights US News says they carry. Moreover, no rationale is provided for these weights. However, weighting only matters to the few schools that are near an important cut point, such as being in the top 10, 25, or 50. This is so because about 90% of the overall differences in ranks among schools can be explained solely by the median LSAT score of their entering classes and essentially all of the differences can be explained by the combination of LSAT and Academic reputation ratings. Consequently, all of the other 10 factors US News measures (such as placement of graduates) have virtually no effect on the overall ranks and because of measurement problems, what little influence they do have may lead to reducing rather than increasing the validity of the results. “”"
Let’s just clear a few things up:
First, ranking schools is not a science nor is this study conclusive; there is good criticism of the selected criteria. If you look at the rankings and see a world of difference between a #60 and a #50 you are not using them correctly. The US News provides a guide to an education based on a reasonable set of criteria. The distinction is that Cooley uses ludicrous factors, such as weighting certain factors (books) absurdly heavily, to achieve a self-serving result – “It’s not in the ball park.”
Second, no one says you are going to get a bad education at Cooley. Between the law schools, everyone ends up reading the same material. I am sure the #1 student at Cooley could achieve great things. But this approach is sort of like when a person says “my dad came from nothing and built his own business, therefore we should not subsidize poorer people because my dad never received help.” The logic is faulty – individual experience does not prove an assertion is correct. Remove yourself to the aggregate and observe how the curve of students fall. Compare the results and experiences from the 10th,30th,50th,75th percentile of students between schools. *Please* stop using personal experience to justify the whole. I would feel very confident that the 50th percentile at Harvard, UCLA, Brooklyn, Pitt, Ohio, etc.. would perform “better” than the 50th at Cooley ~~on the aggregate~~.
COOLEY GRAD: I knew you would interpret that to be some sort of attack; you fool. Why did i “jump ship” and run off? Because I actually want to be able to use my law degree to get a job and make some money, earn a living…that type of stuff, not to wipe my ass with as toilet paper with my degree after law school! Idiots like you who stand on their Cooley soap box are what hurts Cooley’s reputation AMONG PEERS, not magazines you tool.
I’m sure you’ll be writing for the next Cooley ranking publication…lap it up doggy because it’s about all you’ll be able to do with that degree. Now come on here and tell us all about the big bucks you make and how big time you are. That would be the natural progression, no?
Ugh, I don’t get people like you and quite frankly, the people like you are what made being at Cooley more unbearable than anything else.
lol
@Recent Cooley Grad and @Chaz, thanks for your comments. I think both of you made a lot of sense and shed some light on the situation.
A lot of misinformation has been thrown around, so I thought I would clear things up and enlighten a few of you, especially Chaz, who seems to think that every Cooley student is a reluctant one.
I am a recent Cooley grad. I came to Cooley fluent in 4 languages (Spanish, French, German, and English), with an extremely high undergrad GPA garnered from 4 universities (3 of them European, 1 American.) As an American, I have been educated worldwide. Before going to law school, I worked for the American Consulate overseas, and while a student at Cooley, I externed for a prominent federal judge that most graduates would KILL to work for. While some Cooley students are reluctant ones, Chaz is incorrect in assuming that all want to transfer out. Some of us, Chaz, didn’t go to Cooley, as you apparently did, because we didn’t get accepted to our schools of choice, or bombed the LSAT. No, Chaz, some of us, unlike you, adequately prepared for the LSAT, performed phenomenally, and have academic and professional credentials that many posting here can only dream about. Unlike you, we appreciated the academic rigor that Cooley exposed us to as it better prepared us for the rigors of law, which was more important to us than momentary rankings.
I chose Cooley because as an attorney, I wanted to give a voice to those who traditionally don’t have one in our society. For that reason, I rejected the traditional law school admissions policies, which seemed more focused on who my daddy was (a prominent broadcaster), the name of my undergraduate school, and the deans with whom I had a personal relationship, rather than my own accomplishments. Even though I had a high enough LSAT score and undergrad GPA that I got a substantial scholarship to Cooley that paid for a significant portion of my legal education, my decision to attend was based on admiration for Cooley’s fight against the traditional system and their belief that hard work should determine one’s success, not one’s connections. I have never regretted my decision, although it may cost me in job opportunities with employers. It’s a risk I’m willing to take to stand up for something that I believe in.
Just last fall, I externed alongside a graduate from a top-ten law school. (Think Harvard, Yale, or Stanford.) This individual, who did phenomenal in law school, was focused on a career in litigation. I am not. We were comparing our qualifications. By the time I graduated, I had conducted 5 full-length mock trials, worked with judges, written court decisions, orders, contracts, briefs, drafted city ordinances, participated in numerous moot court arguments in front of real judges, interviewed tons of clients, conducted negotiations – the list goes on. All were opportunities that are standard at Cooley – many are required. In comparison, my fellow extern, even though he was focused on litigation, had only conducted one closing argument in his trial skills course, had never conducted a direct or cross examination, and had never written a contract, although he had, like me, written decisions and orders for the court. In addition, I compared myself to other externs working in the court and was surprised to find that none had written contracts or drafted statutes, as I was required to do at Cooley. (As an aside, I would be curious to know from the other posters how many full-length mock trials you conducted while a student and what legal documents – court decisions, opinions, contracts, briefs, statutes, scholarly articles, etc. – you have written.)
I guess it’s what you want out of life. If you get your self esteem through the name of your school, don’t attend Cooley. I get my self esteem knowing I can conduct myself well in a courtroom if I have to, and Cooley, judging from my supervisor’s comments, has adequately prepared me to do that. (My supervisor indicated, amongst other things, that, as a third-year law student, I practiced at a level that was above 90% of the practicing attorneys in the federal courthouse, and I was no ‘shining star’ while at Cooley.) There is a lot to be said for experience and familiarity and I would much rather learn in law school than on the job.
For those who are counting on the name of your school to get you a job (and I realize there are plenty of you), good luck. I sincerely hope your strategy gets you the job of your dreams. I hope, however, that you can understand that some of us appreciate the confidence that comes from mastering important legal skills and preparing for the workforce, which, despite what many of you who are unfamiliar with Cooley may say, Cooley has adequately prepared me to do. Some of us are willing to forego rankings and the opportunity to transfer to a better ranked school to get the legal education we think will better prepare us. While the downside may be having to deal with attitudes based on a false sense of superiority like some of what I’ve seen on this board, the reward – the chance to meet some of you in the courtroom – is well worth it.
I am not going to accept someone posting a completely unsubstantiated success story as any sort of valid proof. Additionally, even if it was entirely truthful, what school doesn’t have a crop of students each year with spectacular stories? A single experience isn’t a convincing argument.
Just to reiterate, my post is about the Cooley ranking system as a reflection on the institution. Can you articulate the specific factors the Cooley system uses give itself such a spectacular ranking?
***Side note: One of the *most important* ways a person grows intellectually in law school is by being surrounded with other bright students… It really just looks like you throw a bunch of very mediocre people (statistically) into a law school and somehow turn coal into diamonds… Sham Wow! It’s unfortunate Cooley doesn’t rank that aspect; its selective like that.
–Deleted Comment–
I am not going to host personal attacks against me.
Of course I expected you to delete my recent posting. Anything that depicts a Cooley student or grad in a positive light you would have to delete, since you seem incapable of intelligently and articulately responding.
As for not tolerating personal attacks, perhaps you should look at your own postings to Cooley grad. You’ll find quite an assortment of personal attacks there. (eg., I quote you: “you Cooley people are incapable of intelligent discussion;” “your law school is a joke;” “you look entirely foolish.”) If you can’t take the heat, stay out of the fire.
By the way, feel free to delete this most recent posting of mine. As an individual who has shown himself incapable of intelligently rebutting a point or having an intelligent discussion without resorting to emotional diatribe and name-calling, I am not surprised that silencing the opposition would be your next tactic. What poor character and complete lack of lawyering skills you demonstrated on this board, Mr. Kraemer.
You personally attacked me by name and made no coherent point. Either you realize it was totally inappropriate or the scrolling on your computer is malfunctioning.
Listen, I put my name and reputation out here on the internet to attract intelligent debate. Let’s level the field, Michelle Gentry, why do you post Cooley talking points that with the smallest research effort seem to have no factual basis?
The “Your law school is still a joke” comment preceded a string of authoritative data suggesting Thomas Cooley and certain people on this board are manipulating data – for instance trying to pass a clear outlier, the February bar exam, as a valid contemporaneous measure of school ability (which is, by the way, exactly how Cooley’s website frames it) . Try and understand one major reason that I personally think Cooley is the laughing stock of the law schools is because of the promotion of an absurd ranking system that is incompatible with standards of academic integrity (scholars have noted this as well).
I have articulated the numerous ways in which I think Cooley is being manipulative and disingenuous. The total lack of ability to grapple with the shortcomings of your argument is a bit scary.
You might be a fine lawyer, a great person, and accomplished wonderful things as a Cooley grad, but this conversation has moved from rational to Cooley jingoism (extreme patriotism).
“This individual, who did phenomenal in law school, was focused on a career in litigation. I am not.”
That should be phenomenally. Lolly, lolly, lolly, get your adverbs here.
@ Recent Grad: now I see why my Crim professor bans ‘personal narratives’. What a load of junk. To point out a few gaping flaws in your self-serving anecdote:
1. if you truly had such a high LSAT and GPA, you would not have gotten “a substantial scholarship to Cooley”- you would’ve gotten a full ride. Anybody with a pulse can get a full ride, much less someone with numbers over both 75th (if you don’t have that, we need to discuss what high performance means) and as an illustrious an upbringing as you claim.
2. while disclaiming what you viewed as nepotistic admissions policies, you completely disregard the fact that maybe the only way you got these coveted externships (externship? srsly?) with a TTTT on your resume was daddy’s ‘connections’ rather than any merit of your own. [PS, I love how you still can't resist dropping that hook anyway: a prominent broadcaster]
3. in comparing yourself to the T10 extern, you fail to give proper weight to the fact that a) there’s a lot more to litigation than oral advocacy; b) mock trial is for high schoolers and weirdly gunnerish undergrads; and c) maybe this T10 student didn’t feel the need to engage in a dick-measuring contest with some idiot from Cooley and just let you have your day in the sun. So you constantly “compared [your]self to other externs” while you were working? Some inferiority complex…
Recent Grad: Excellent comment.
I had a similar situation while on externship at a large, private firm in Arizona. After proofing several of my first writings, by the middle of my semester, many of the briefs and motions which I wrote were being signed and submitted by the supervising attorneys without even being read. When a reply arrived from an opposing law office, it was just dropped on my desk for a response…also without having been read first. Many of those attorneys placed their trust in me, and I did not disappoint.
In another example, my firm represented one plaintiff (out of six) against a city in Arizona for wrongful death. One of the partners from a sister firm arrived at my building (representing a separate plaintiff) and requested the name of whichever partner wrote a case-related motion, as he thought it was so skilled. When he was told it was done by me – a student extern – he was amazed and sent his congratulations.
Meanwhile, the three other summer associates performed with only average skill, regardless of them having been from a “top” law school in the state. In fact, one of the three (actually a very nice kid) had not been required to know Harvard Blue Book Uniform Citations, so I had to take time out of each of my days to proof (read: fix) his writing prior to him turning it in to his supervising attorneys. This seemed as ironic to me then as it does now, as U.S. News ranked the school these kids came from as being so great. Go figure.
Recent Grad and I understand one thing: our stories of success do not exist DESPITE the law school we attended, but BECAUSE of it. Cooley is an excellent school, regardless of whether it beats to a different drum. The school produces results…and excellent advocates.
Those law students out there who continually attack Cooley (and there are many) do so for one reason; it makes them nervous. Cooley challenges the misperceptions that many students rely on for opportunities: U.S. News’ school rankings. Over time, Cooley will continue to wear down the misperceptions about “top schools,” while continuing to assert itself as a fantastic educational institution. As it does this, U.S. News’ rankings will begin to mean less to some, and a job that would have been offered to a “top” law school student a decade ago just may go to a student from a Tier Three or Four school. This makes Cooley dangerous and, therefore, makes students at “the best” law schools nervous.
It’s sad that so many law students get their sense of worth (and entitlement) from which school they attend, rather than their own abilities.
Cooley is not dangerous, it does scare nor make nervous… certainly annoying though. Stop using these ridiculous talking points because it is really making my head hurt.
Listen, I’ll play this stupid game for a minute. Let’s just hypothetically say Cooley did have the premier educational system by advocating legal pragmatism. This means more briefs, memos cases, statutes, blue booking, etc… Now, all of sudden the mainstream woke up to the Cooley revelation. All those ‘top’ schools have to do is slightly alter the curricula. Yeah, it’s just a minor adjustment and most schools could do exactly what Cooley claims to do.
In my hypothetical the “top schools” (always read this by the way in the obnoxious Sarah Palin folksy voice) now have the same exact course load, plus a statistically far more intelligent and hardworking crowd of people. I wonder where on the aggregate the people will end up? Not surprising it is already reflected in the employment stats.
I am also incredibly serious that if I have to read through another long post only to be confronted by some inane argument such as “I worked with some guy from a top 100 and he was stupid thus Cooley is better” I am going to edit the post by inserting a disclaimer of *faulty logic*.
Cough, the thing Cooley dropped to squeeze in another brief… apparently…
Cooley is what it is: Open admissions. Its like Ellis Island for potential law students. A second chance for kids who partied their way through university at the expense of GPA. Or kids who just do not do well on standardised testing, such as the LSAT. Cooley is like boot camp. “Send us your most raw recruits, and we’ll put them to test.”
I transfered from there to a “top 100 law” school. Nothing to brag about but certainly one that would never be attacked as TCLS is on this blog. In any event, I found the top 100 school was much, much easier. Another friend of mine from undergrad transferred from Cooley to UVA. Is that good enough for you? The point is you could transfer anywhere.
It was written many years ago that Stanford was a “country club” after there emerged some reports of grade inflation. I remember reading this as a law student. Based on my experiences as a transfer, I believed it. And I still do today. Not picking on Stanford (I love that school), but just using it as an example of a highly rated law school that cares about its students (namely, their tuition, their alumni contribs and their marketing of the school to others, but it’s all good). As such, from here forward, I’ll refer to “Stanford”.
Top tier schools have a wonderful, selectively chosen pool of brain power entering as 1L’s. That is undisputed. The “best and the brightest”. Based on their performance up to high school graduation, in most cases. These are young folk.
But whether they are truly tested, as law students, after that point of being admitted is another matter. Whether it makes any difference toward their development as practitioners I am not sure. This will be the subject of intense study, forever. But certainly, in my opinion, one should consider this, i.e. how much they are actually tested (not simply their intelligence going in), before making assumptions about other law schools.
Cooley when I was there made you work very hard. Now I’m sure every law grad would say they “worked hard”. But as a transfer I can at least compare two schools. I have some perspective that others don’t. People that only attended one law school have only experienced one system.
Sure, at Cooley, your “competition” was not as brilliant as the entering class at “Yale”, but, I sometimes wonder if this made any difference. That is, any difference to the *work* (cf. the atmospehere).
I think the faculty there at TCLS had a standard that students had to meet, a very rigid standard, and they were not hesistant to send a student packing if they failed to meet the standard. Perhaps it made less difference how well other students performed, because Cooley faculty knew that many students are going to fail. They were going to fail students. It was their job. This is the consequence of “open admissions”.
And so, it is truly, not just hypothetically, “sink or swim”. Go back and look at the attrition rate at your law school. Then look at Cooley’s attrition rate. Believe me, Cooley students had much more to fear than you. The possibility of being sent home was much more concrete.
Another thing I learned at Cooley and as a transfer was… Law school is a business. There are seats to fill and tuition to collect. And this is the “bottom line”. Like it or not, the rest is secondary. If a university does not run its academic programs as a business, it will likely lose them. The schools are selling seats, first and foremost. Of course they won’t “sell to just anybody”. You can run with that idea all you want. But the point is they must market and sell, like any other business. Students are consumers.
Top 100 law schools do not want to fail students, have them leave and then have to fill their seats. Not only does that look bad, but it is “unnecessary” administrative work to refill those seats. They went through the work to select you. They want to believe they made a good choice.
But at Cooley, a high rate of attrition was expected. Their registrars were working overtime, all the time. It was like a revolving door. They sent plenty of students home. As a result, it was certainly not a “country club”. Cooley’s marketing strategy is open admissions. Their selection process was a simple graph. You were either in the “admit” zone or not. A pulse would probably suffice. lol. (I love ya, Cooley.)
I am honestly thankful for having experienced the infamous “Cooley Law School”. Why? Because the faculty was “hardened”.
When I arrived at the top 100 school as a transfer, it seemed like the students were half asleep. They were lax, to say the least. It was as if things were moving in slow motion. It soon became apparent from discussions with the students that I had done 3x the work they had done as 1L’s. I never would have known this had I not transferred. But more shocking to me was that it was so obvious they knew they could get away with being slack. And they were taking full advantage. The faculty were “compassionate”. No one fails, but “please kids, work hard”. At Cooley, many of them would have been sent home. It does not matter at Cooley if you come in with Ivy League credentials. If you don’t do the work, you’re out. Which seems more like the “real world”?
As any lawyer knows, the law is not “rocket science”. As a frustrated young lawyer once noted, the law is mostly “muppet work”. This person was not lying. Intelligence per se, is not mandatory for high performance in this “career”. Even in the most technical casework, your “intelligence” is not what gets the job done. It is not the bulk of the work. We all know the “muppet work” that forms the majority of law practice is in turn delegated to the non-lawyers in the firm. That leaves us to focus on more important qualities. There is no need to detail them here. If you’re in the business then you know what they are.
Now consider what it means to attend “Stanford”. For one, it means you were “good to begin with”. You had a good track record of performance as a young person. Your pedigree was desirable. You sent in the application. And you passed the audition. You made the cut. Congrats. You are on your way.
Now what? What happens next? A lot of propaganda that’s what. Oooooh, big scary law school. So much suffering. Fearful, confused and whining law students. Perfect subjects for “brainwashing”. Not everyone buys into it, but many do. No matter what work the students are required to do, be it small or large, we can be sure they’ll complain. Oh, law school is so tough. Oh yes. Just like you’ve heard. These first years are living in a bubble, shut off from the outside world. They believe whatever they are told.
Well, after a year at Cooley, the school I transfered to felt like a cake walk. Honestly, I would not trade my first year at Cooley for a first year anywhere else, because they put my mind to test. In my opinion, the first year is very important, not simply for the “brainwashing” element, but for the work you do. The “immersion” I got at Cooley (thanks to my own self-imposed discipline) was not what I would have gotten at the school to which I transferred. Because there I would have just mimicked the slackness of the other students. I would have relied on “compassionate” faculty to “hold my hand” and lead me through. I would have been “too comfortable”. At Cooley, there was no comfort. I had to work to get out of there. It was not so much the threat of failing, but the threat of not being top of the class and transferring.
Most law students do not transfer. They can only rely on hearsay to know what it must be like at other law schools. I’m just giving you a different perspective.
But, in the end, what matters is where we graduate from, right? Not the work we did. Correct?
Hey, that’s what I believed and that’s the main reason I transferred. Cooley is what it is. Open admissions. A chance for anyone to have a go at an ABA law school.
I give the TCLS faculty a lot of credit. Especially when there are probably faculty at some of the top tier institutions complaining about how poorly their students perform (and knowing they have to pass the lazy bastards anyway). In such case, those whining faculty should have their administration give open admissions a try. That would give them some perspective.
Look, I can’t even sit here and read these epic posts. I came on here and told it straight and the Cooley people disagree. That’s fine. Why do you Cooley grads insist on writing these novel length responses?
This is exactly what I was talking about when I mentioned the people who got stuck at Cooley trying to cram it down your throat for justification. You people are just not telling it how it is if you’re saying a fair number of students want to be at Cooley.
In Michigan, your run of the mill everyday people do know of Cooley and don’t have anything bad to say about it. But come on, before transferring, I sought the advice of several of the professors who were on the level with me and they all suggested to take a transfer.
I’m not going to continue going back and forth on here. Deep down, if you’re all being honest, you know the very large majority of students are trying to get out of Cooley within that first year window. I don’t know how you can come on here and claim that because you’re the exception to the rule, that means many people desire to initially attend Cooley over all others and then to stay there if they have the chance to transfer. Highest attrition of any law school…that says a lot. Oh yeah, it’s the “weeding out” process, I forgot. Congrats grads…keep living the dream!
For the rest of you are are rational, reasonable human beings, my intent is not to bash Cooley. I promise you all, while it may not be every single person in the building, a very very high percentage of students talk about nothing but where they will transfer to after first year. It’s just how it is there. Realistically, employers beyond the local market are just not going to be overly impressed with a Cooley degree. It may be because they’ve never heard of Cooley and not so much because they think Cooley stinks, but I would prefer going into the job market with a degree from a school employers will recognized when seeing the name as opposed to a school that an employer will not recognize.
Anyway, sorry to have to make this a long post people. I don’t aspire to write like our colleagues Recent Grad and Cooley Grad, but they made me do it. Yall can yap your heads off as I am retiring from posting after this. Brace yourselves for the next wave of hyperbole and venom dressed in “explanation” and “above the fray” discourse.
Thanks, Chaz, I will keep living the dream. As a Cooley grad, I quite enjoy externing for a federal judge, although it’s probably nothing like the job you have. Of course you are employed (or already have a prestigious job lined up for you upon graduation), right Chaz?
lol @ “externing” upon graduation. Cooley grads don’t know they shoot themselves in the foot with posts like these.
Too true, Guest. Sounds like an unpaid position Cooley begs for in order to inflate its employment numbers.
Damn, Michael Kraemer, you fought epically, but I think you just got your ass handed to you. Even D.M. Manes knew when it was time to bow out.
Oh well, at least you got some traffic for your silly little blog.
I am pretty sure I made my point about how the ranking system is foolish as well as articulate the numerous failings inherent in Cooley. I don’t need to write a novel to show that using an individual experience as proof faulty. Not to mention the guy who transferred and compared the 1L and 2L years without even noting that most schools have drastically different experiences.
Side Note: Isn’t interesting that none of the Cooley folks want to focus on the Cooley Rankings but instead attack vehemently the USNWR?
Isn’t it interesting that these people who transfer out while lauding how ‘hard’ Cooley was (I mean, come on- you didn’t do well in undergrad and/or you bombed the LSAT: of course this stuff is going to seem hard) fail to account for the fact the 2L year is generally regarded as MUCH easier than 1L?
Also, I got a lot of traffic – hopefully some potential Cooley folks reconsidering the choice.
Isn’t interesting that Michael Kraemer vehemently attacks Cooley’s ranking system while defending the tiering system originally established by US News?
Are you kidding? I just posted the conclusion of this academic study saying that USNWR has serious flaws. Frankly, I think that is somewhat accurate considering I referred to it as guidepost based on reasonable factors.
The point is the Cooley system is totally unreasonable in way it attempts to formulate a ranking system. But none of you Cooley people mention these far more egregious errors. It is so intellectually dishonest that I am appalled the students and faculty have not mounted protest.
Cooley has the audacity to cite to insurmountable human suffering under the Indian caste system? Suggesting that the top law schools suffer from “entitlement” saying “Americans inherently reject elitism and discrimination in favor of opportunity.” That is such incoherent bullshit, students work their asses off to get these great UGPA’s, LSAT scores, notable achievements, all to attend schools that foster a highly intelligent academic community between students and faculty. The top law schools also put *heavy pressure* on faculty.
Finally, Cooley is a different type of law school – for the most part. While others focus on getting students to change how they think, Cooley is the “blue collar” or “Vocational” law school where it trains via intense “practical/field work” for the many low level legal positions across the country. Statistics overwhelming demonstrate this scenario. It is not a caste system because everyone entering into the legal education system attends schools by merit. Instead of trying to be a top school, why not focus on producing the best in what you are currently training for? OR, maybe start attracting a more qualified student body which correlates with a more rigorous education (yes, its a fact, people produce in levels comparable to their peers). In fact, I would say the most important factor in a great law school education is surrounding oneself with highly intelligent people in which you compete and engage on a daily basis.
What I really don’t understand is if Cooley claims the USNWR represents the Caste System model and such a system is discriminatory and oppressive, WHY WOULD THEY START THEIR OWN RANKING SYSTEM which is just a parallel oppressive and discriminatory system?
I thought “breaking the chains” would be to obliterate the ranking system altogether, not just start your own.
I graduated from Cooley cum laude in 1996. It’s an average law school. I scored a 156 on the MBE. Its reputation continues to suck because it continues to be a cold, hard place where they continue to let any one in. To say that it is a top 50 law school is laughable. On the other hand, I doubt that it really is one of the ten worse law schools–as its bad rep would seem to dictate.
Like a lot of things in life–you need to made your own breaks. A JD from Cooley will not open any doors for you.
This post was deleted (in part) because of the quote,
“I WOULD SAY you come across as a sniveling, entitled, elitist brat, but I fear you would delete my post, as it seems you’re the only one allowed to name call on here.”
It’s like a bad movie where you say hilariously insulting comments then say no offense intended and believe it absolves you. Again, you can say whatever you want but refrain from personal attacks.
-Michael
I want to add that if I am being unfair or incorrect in my assessment of Cooley Grad’s comment please say something.
And another thing: What’s wrong with being an elite? I understand elitism has a connotation of snobbery – but I think of it differently (also I do get the irony of pulling it from Wikipedia) :
“a select group of people with, intellect, wealth, specialized training or experience, or other distinctive attributes — are those whose views on a matter are to be taken the most seriously or carry the most weight or those who view their own views as so; whose views and/or actions are most likely to be constructive to society as a whole; or whose extraordinary skills, abilities or wisdom render them especially fit to govern.”
“Michael Kraemer, Senior Editor
Mike is a University of Pittsburgh Law School student with an eye for politics. He has a unique blend of libertarian roots and a progressive mindset. Within his wide range of expertise, Mike writes on legal issues, including modern civil rights questions. He is the Senior Editor for legal issues and politics.”
Now the article makes sense. Are you upset that the Unvierstiy of Pittsburgh wasn’t included in Cooley’s rankings? Why do you even care what goes on in other law schools? How do you even have the time to care being a law student? But what amazes me the most about your blog is how you are so upset about a 2-year-old article. Does it really matter what Cooley thinks of itself? Does it really matter what Newsweek thinks about any law schol? In the long run, not at all. Law school is all what you get out of it personally. If you really think it matters where you go to law school, you are wrong. In the end, it all comes down to experience.
Good luck on the bar.
Recently, there has been a political stir about for-profit educational institutions. Students are lured in with grandiose promises then left with insurmountable debt. Those graduating from borderline “scam” institutions could, honestly, accomplish “whatever they get out of it.” The problem is the exception is not the rule. I doubt Pitt Law will see suffer from Cooley’s suspect rankings. My motives lay with exposing a system that just might hurt a considerable number of people.
WHAT a SELFLESS HERO!! You’re a dream! Thanks for being the knight in shining armor on a white stallion arriving to rescue all of the damsels in distress from making the horrible mistake to attend Cooley! Why, if we didn’t have YOU around to protect us from ourselves, who KNOWS what we would do?? We may fall prey to all of the borderline “scam” for-profit schools!
Lets see. Pittsburgh Law charges $1,422 per credit hour for an out-of-state student to attend. Cooley charges $1,093 per credit hour regardless of state residence. The way I see it, my moving to Michigan to attend Cooley was a sound financial decision over moving to attend Pittsburgh Law (as GREAT as it is!).
Be careful, Mikey. Attending such an expensive school, such as Pittsburgh Law, just might hurt a considerable number of people…yourself included.
I doubt Pitt would ever be considered expensive in the scheme of prospective schools, but how do the post graduate statistics grade your claim?
According to this Cooley requires 90 credits.
http://officialguide.lsac.org/SearchResults/SchoolPage_PDFs/LSAC_LawSchoolDescription/LSAC1796.pdf
Cooley costs about $33,816. (adding Fee’s, which somehow Cooley claims a lower loan fee)
http://www.cooley.edu/prospective/expenses.html
So $1127.2 per credit at Cooley.
Pitt Law requires 88 credits. But to make it more comparable lets use 90, not to mention that I think you pay for a blanket 15 for each semester (oh, also I don’t think our intern credits don’t cost $ but lets ignore that for now).
http://www.law.pitt.edu/registrar/graduation/requirements
Pitt Law costs $33,464 (out of state, 25,468) (adding in Fees)
http://www.law.pitt.edu/financialaid/costs
So that’s $1115.46666 per credit. Or $848.93 for in state.
—Anyway that’s a pretty cursory look at this situation but it seems right.
Now, what really annoys me is that you picked Pitt’s high number (credits + cost of living, books, etc.) and compared it with Cooley’s low number (purely credit based). This is exactly what I am complaining about, “Manipulation of Facts and Statistics”. It’s like some of you Cooley folks are living in your own world of delusion. I don’t hold myself out to be a knight in shining armor, although I do enjoy the allusion, but I feel strongly some people may be entering Cooley based on faulty logic or statistical and factual misrepresentations.
I think we should talk post graduate employment if we are looking at this an investment.
David’s Quote: “”"15.4% unemployment 9 months after graduation for Cooley!!?? Holy shit, man. Potentially several more percent out of the 11% who didn’t provide data!?! Damn.”"” … “”"Compare that with the University of Pittsburgh (where Mike and I are right now). Pitt grads have an unemployment rate of 3.3% 9 months after graduation. Data is only missing for 1%.”"”
Cooley Grad, financial adviser, care to provide us with some income stats? (Side note: I think as a follow up to this post it might be interesting to cross tabulate the value of law schools by percentage— thoughts anyone)
I normally like Cooley bashing…but you went to Pitt Law. You are throwing stones from an equally useless diploma mill.
@ Cooley Grad – You keep playing into Michael’s hands, i.e., you make some assertion and then he knocks you down. It’s comical. Like the post right above mine, Michael lays out how you manipulated data to fit your conclusion. This is exactly what the Thomas Cooley law school does with the ranking system, with the cherry picking of data (like saying we won a small moot court in 2007 against better schools and thus we are better LOL), and really the false hope given to many students who will face enormous debt and on average will make only a small salary.
After every argument was exhausted, this turned to an attack Michael board. Again, right above this post Cooley Grad and Nick make these utterly obnoxious personal attacks. Nick, you really think Michael gives a shit that Pittsburgh isn’t on a ranking list only Cooley uses and everyone else laughs at? Or suggesting “why should he care”- well because Cooley, like the for-profit undergrads under federal investigations, are freaking dangerous. And lastly, Nick, you suggest that he spend more time focusing on law school? Seriously? Law school teaches you how to think, clearly a trait Michael has acquired.
I applaud Michael for intellectual blogging, using his real identity, while you Cooley cowards personally attack him then scream foul. Thomas Cooley is the embarrassment of the legal community.
Legal Begal, it’s obvious you’re friends with Mr. Kraemer. Did you two sit next to each other in Torts II?? Whoa!! That class was so hard!!
Anyways, now even the Colbert Report has caught on to the a game “top” law schools play: grade inflation (and, yes, he was mocking a Tier 2 school on his show). Loyola Law School (Los Angeles) announced that it is going to begin inflating its students grades to make them look more appealing in the job market. By the way, U.S. News & World Report ranks them #56 in the nation.
Here’s some more fun…
“In the last two years, at least 10 law schools have deliberately changed their grading systems to make them more lenient. These include law schools like New York University and Georgetown, as well as Golden Gate University and Tulane University, which just announced the change this month.” – New York Times
NYU Law – #6 in the country, according to U.S. News
Georgetown Law – #14 in the country, according to U.S. News
Tulane Law – #46 in the country, according to U.S. News
Seriously, these law schools are SO GOOD that they just need to artificially inflate their grades…so that they can be EVEN BETTER!!
If this is the way that “top” law schools think, maybe Cooley should just begin handing everyone an “A.” Cooley only graduates 4.0 students. Now Cooley grads are just as good as kids from the “top” law schools. Wow, that was easy!!
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2010/04/loyola-law-school-ups-grades-provokes-debate.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/22/business/22law.html?_r=1
Yup, grade inflation is a problem:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_law_school_GPA_curves
…but I don’t think it is anywhere near determinative of the quality education. It probably should be addressed, but then again most schools use percentiles.
What absolutely amazes me about this entire argument “my school is better than yours” is the nonsense. Kids going through school today have this horrible idea of entitlement to say the lease. Obviously, many are lacking an actual day worked in their life. Your in law school; Great! If your planning on being a lawyer; the first thing to do is to grow up. So many clients will be lost due to one’s attitude; especially the clients that you need to sustain your practice. A law firm will send an underling packing in about 5 minutes if clients are lost.
Recent law school grads will make nothing in terms of a salary (unless mommy an daddy own a large firm). Be prepard to work your butt off for the first year or two for this small wage. Tarnishing your name and reputation is swift if you think your entitled because of where you went to law school.
Your Wikipedia article indicates that Cooley’s curve (2.00 to 2.40) is the second lowest on that specific list. So, if I were to ever have received a “C,” it would be approximately equivalent to a “better” law school’s “B+.”
It must be rewarding for you guys to get such high grades. But, doesn’t anyone look puzzled when over 50% of your “top” law school’s graduating class graduates cum laude?? I’m sure it has nothing to do with grade inflation; you’re all just really that intelligent.
With so many “top” law schools grossly inflating their grading curves (in order to keep up with other law schools that do it, of course), it’s good to know we have such a non-subjective magazine like U.S. News and World Report to tell us which law schools are the “best.”
Your logic only makes sense if every class of law students is “equivalent” to every other class. If you really think that the top 10% at Harvard and Yale are equivalent to the top 10% at Cooley and other 4th tier schools… and the bottom 10% at Harvard and Yale are equivalent to the bottom 10% at Cooley and the other 4th tier schools… then yes, your Cooley C’s would be equivalent to getting a B+ at a real top tier school.
You’ve got to be kidding.
Law school GPA is really an arbitrary point where a person can roughly find their percentile / rank. I don’t think there is a right or wrong way. However, it is the employer’s who handle it the wrong way when they only entertain a certain threshold of GPA’s without regard to class rank. That being said, it benefits students of a particular school to have grade inflation.
The point is grade inflation shouldn’t have an impact on the schools ranking anyway – so I think your entire analysis is off.
This whole thing is a collective problem; kind of makes me think for the economic crisis in Europe where certain countries had no incentive to stay within the preset debt to GDP bands. Every country (slash school) that does this behavior hurts everyone else for its gain.Ultimately, if it isn’t under control it leads to runaway grade inflation and everyone suffers.
Greetings.
Please allow a comment from someone who graduated from a state law school (Mizzou) some two decades ago and has practiced law in a small town since that time.
Rankings are of course suspect. While I think the U.S. News rankings carry way too much weight, and do perpetuate a “caste system,” I find Cooley’s rankings to be absurd. I try a lot of cases, and let me suggest that creating an evaluation system which contrary to all other systems places one’s efforts in the upper level is obviously suspect.
The bottom line is once someone is practicing law, nobody cares about which law school s/he attended. Similarly, after the first week or so of law school, nobody gives a rat’s tookus about a student’s undergraduate GPA or LSAT score.
It’s all about the quality of the work. I’ve known Cooley graduates who were idiots. I’ve know Harvard graduates I’d consider the same. Likewise, I’ve known Cooley graduates who do fine and seem to be smart people. As an employer, I find what one’s done in “real life” outside of the law to be better predictor to legal success. Give me someone who’s done manual labor in his/her life before anyone who’s life experiences demonstrate little knowledge of the world outside of academe.
Regards.
All law schools manipulate things to assist their graduates, i.e. multiple law journals or reviews or whatever.
Amen brother.
“It’s all about the quality of the work. I’ve known Cooley graduates who were idiots. I’ve know Harvard graduates I’d consider the same. Likewise, I’ve known Cooley graduates who do fine and seem to be smart people.”
No truer words have been spoken. I work for a Fortune 100 company in NYC and I am a Cooley Graduate (Class of ’95) and I can attest to the supreme truth of this comment. Work hard whatever school you attend, get the chip off of your shoulder or lose the sense of entitlement (You know which one you are) . . . .a lower ranked school means you’ll have to work harder to open doors, a higher ranked school means those doors will be open more easily to you, however, once in, whoever you are, the playing field is level and you WILL have to prove yourself. Prepare yourselves now.
I am an old Cooley grad (’77). From its earliest days Cooley spouted a sort of libertarian, chip-on-your-shoulder attitude toward the legal education establishment. This was due to the personality of its founder, Tom Brennan, who had to literaly go to war with the ABA over accreditation. Now that Cooley’s got more money than God it still comes out swinging against anybody who suggests it’s second (or fourth) rate. Well, I’ve read the statistics and have come to the inescapable conclusion that Cooley is a fourth-tier school when measured by most ranking methods. However, it’s plain wrong to say that Cooley itself is an embarrassment. What is embarrassing is Cooley’s crazy attempts to prove that it’s something it’s not and will never be. It has every right to be proud of itself for giving a lot of people a chance to be great lawyers. That’s good enough.
I am a Cooley Graduate. I have three small children and a wife that works. The school has very flexible scheduling options. The professors there take an interest in you, and you get out of the school what you put into it, just like anything else in life. During my clerkship, the court considered my work stellar. While clerking for the Court of Common Pleas I was asked to write a memo for the Ohio Supreme Court during my clerkship, based upon the research and writing skills I acquired at Cooley. The Supreme Court representative just saw my work and did not ask anything anent my alma mater. I think expending so much energy regarding a particular school in a blog that probably has less web traffic than my Facebook page is more probative of the various authors’ interests in mental masturbation and poor time management. I happened upon this site by accident and I am glad I did. In my professional life prior to law school I worked with some of the most educated and wealthiest people on this planet. I assure you that those that have anything of consequence do not begrudge or malign those attempting his or her betterment or the institutions facilitating that pursuit. I would not share a flat beer with any of you, much less want you in a firm where I am practicing. The apparent fixation on statistics clearly plays into the admonishment that, “There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.” Benjamin Disraeli.
I don’t know what to make of your half bragging, half derogatory comment.
I have never heard of a Common Pleas clerk being asked to write a memo for the Supreme. Beyond that the two structures don’t really interact and the two courts write very differently so it sounds a bit implausible for a clerk to do a one off memo. I laughed imagining the Judge saying, “Hey, I know this isn’t really done for a number of good reasons, but let’s have that Common Pleas Cooley clerk write this baby.” lol
What kind of arrogant person just makes the appeal to authority argument that he, “worked with some of the most educated and wealthiest people on this planet.” You intertwine that with the next comment that these elites don’t, “begrudge or malign those attempting his or her betterment or the institutions facilitating that pursuit.” Yet then you attack me for intellectual blogging calling it mental masturbation? You sound ridiculous Charles.
Listen, I know this touched a nerve with you Cooley people, that’s good. This blog post really draws out all these differing arguments about Cooley and if a person reads the entirety of these comments it’s my hope they get a better feel for what they are getting into…
*Written from my Droid X.
I do not suggest that you defame me by characterizing my activities as implausible. I can show proof positive for everything I asserted in my earlier text. Intellectual blogging? Please, you William Buckley wannabees are what I indicated, supra. You attack minor grammatical errors of one poster, you characterize my life experience as “an appeal to authority”. Big deal, you took a logic class in College. We all did. The truth of what I said stands. Live with it. Cooley gave me a good education. A professor called me at home just last night to see what I was doing and offer me encouragement as I study for the bar.
I would take a hard working attorney from a middling or lower ranking school over some a lazy attorney from a upper tier school any day of the week.
As to you having an “eye toward politics” (sic), I suggest that if you ever enter the fray, you will receive your real education via the working class voters. They would rather have an attorney that shares their background and struggles than someone who looks down their nose at them. Many great political writers would never be elected dog catcher.
Charles, I don’t care to jump in the middle of this spat, but what is the point of your comments as they relate to the original article. Do you defend the Cooley ranking system or do you agree with the article’s criticism that it is deceptive? Your personal story is perfectly fine and perfectly irrelevant to that central point. This is a larger question than any individual narratives can address.
People like you should not necessarily take offense to the article or to my dismissal of your personal experiences. I think anyone would mostly agree with you that education is something that you “get out of what you put into it.” That means that it is possible for outstanding individuals to excel even in disadvantaged academic conditions and possible for lazy individuals to languish despite academic advantages. But it doesn’t mean there is no meaningful difference between the disadvantaged and the advantaged academic conditions, and it is on this last issue that the discussion centers.
As one last thing, we should all agree that it doesn’t make sense to present the “hard working attorney from a middling or lower ranking school” and the “lazy attorney from a upper tier school” as if they are the only two choices or even two likely choices. At best, it is hypothetically possible that an employer would be faced with such a decision. But knowing nothing else about two candidates, it makes sense to assume that the graduate of a top tier law school would be stronger (the individual who evidently worked hard in high school and undergrad to achieve the necessary top grades, who evidently studied effectively for the LSAT, and who successfully completed three years at a challenging institution).
Good luck in the future. May all your employers find you the “stronger candidate” and make the same assumption that you worked harder and prepared more and that anyone who did not go to what is considered a top tier school is an ineffective studier. Your post, condescension and arrogance speak volumes. Like Mr. Kraemer said earlier, I hope everyone does bother to read the entire thread. It reminds me of what Scalia said about his law clerk from Ohio State University that he inherited from a previous justice. He said that he was the best law clerk he had ever had, but that he would never hire someone that did not come from an Ivy League school. While I appreciated his honesty, as I have in this entire thread, the sad truth is that no matter what one’s work habits are, and no matter what one’s work reputation is, there are many individuals who insist that it is the pedigree that matters. Those who embrace the aristocracy, with the concomitant and false assumptions that everyone who landed there did so by merit and those persons who are not amongst them lower life forms, do so at their own peril and risk societal stagnation.
Regarding the basis of this thread, I wholeheartedly agree that the Cooley statistical calculations are a joke. I think most statistics are. Cooley gives students the keys to the car when many other schools will not and if they sink or swim it is up to them. I started off with six in my study group. Two transferred away, and three flunked out and I was the last one standing. I told some members of the Cooley administration that one solution to losing students as the result of transferring is to charge a premium for the first year and rebate it in the last one for loyalty. I myself could have transferred to a “second tier” school less than 15 miles from my home, but I was raised that you dance with the one that brought you. During Barbri, I met a former fellow Cooley Student who transferred to a “first tier” school and lamented the decision. Who knows what each individual’s situation is regarding how they arrived at his or her station in life?
Mr. Kraemer paternalistic-ally expresses his concerns regarding massive law school debt and the likely employment opportunities for Cooley Graduates. Anyone worth their salt can find those same numbers online and they are foolish if they do not do so before crossing Cooley’s threshold. Implicating Cooley as opportunistic and preying upon students totally negates free will. Everyone who enters there is an adult, capable of making choices and competent to do so. If one has not done their homework and research ahead of time, it is on them. The judge who taught my evidence class also trains all judges across Michigan in the same subject. The judge I had for Moot Court is Senior Status from the Sixth District Court of Appeals. I could go on and on about the faculty there, or my experiences and the opportunities that presented themselves as a Cooley student and grad, but I think it is lost on deaf ears here.
Cooley should embrace itself. While attending Barbri at another law school, I wore my Cooley T-shirt every day I could. When I told one of the other students I guessed that the changes regarding Arizona vs. Gant and Montejo v. Louisiana would be on the exam since they were new interpretations of the Fourth and Sixth amendments, he looked at me like I was speaking Martian. On the other hand, at my lowly fourth tier school, in 2009, when Montejo was going up before Scotus, I actually had the opportunity to help the Professor who argued Jackson vs. Michigan before the same court prepare research for an amicus. I predicted, accurately, that Kennedy would side with the four.
Thanks for the diversion. Back to Article 9 and I really, really, hope to see you in Court someday. Take care.
Charles, if you “wholeheartedly agree that the Cooley statistical calculations are a joke, “then I am having trouble understanding what your argument here is. You appear to agree on the fundamental point, and you oppose the above commenters like “Cooley Grad” who defend the absurd Cooley ranking system.
The other point you make, although it is unconnected to this particular discussion, is well taken: “Cooley gives students the keys to the car when many other schools will not.” I don’t think anyone would disparage Cooley for doing that just like no one should disparage community colleges and state undergrad schools with open admission who open doors for college students who otherwise would miss out on a college education. Those educational institutions serve a valid purpose and our society is better for having them. Once again, you have a topic upon which there is widespread agreement. Your comments would be a strong rebuttal if the point of the article were to Cooley had no worth at all and could not possibly produce successful graduates. Since that is not the point of the article, your comments are tangential.
The problem is that Cooley is not content to present itself as a fourth tier, catch-all law school. Instead, it manipulates statistics is a way that can only be described as deceptive. I’m glad that you are able to recognize that deception and do not attempt to defend it. There are lots of different educational institutions out there, available to different groups of students and providing different kinds of benefits. Not all students are the same and neither are all educational institutions. One thing remains at the end of the discussion, though: all educational institutions should be held to a standard of honesty.
@ Charles – What on earth do they feed you at Cooley? We all freaking get the personal examples where a person from Cooley ( or Ohio) can be an absolute miracle maker. But let’s think ‘on the average.’ If you are really telling me that people who have entered top 100 schools – through academics, lsat, life experience, whatever variables – are comparable to folks who have barely scrapped enough qualifications together to get into the lowest ranked school – you are truly displaying your utter foolishness.
Mr. Kraemer pointed out exactly how you try and argue as well: Appeals to Authority and Personal Examples. If you argue statistically, using independent variables (pre or post graduation) Cooley always get killed.
Maybe you don’t get this Charles so i’ll drop it down a notch for ya. I graduated a top school where there were morons I felt didn’t belong there. But you know what, it is rather easy to write a person off until they are in their own element of law. Some people don’t give a shit about criminal law but adore intellectual property and go on at length on Bilski. Anyways, I was surrounded by some really intelligent people and was always challenged by my peers. As Mr. Kraemer pointed out, much of a legal education centers around those whom one associates. Anyway, the important thing is at top schools there is a proportionally higher level of smart and dedicated people – Cooley really is the receptacle for least qualified, thats why all your friends left Charles.
This is the same conversation that has occurred over and over again in this thread and it is just obnoxious.
Well, to “drop it down a notch” for L@L at Cooley, all my friends did not leave. If two out of six leave that is, by my calculations, thirty percent and certainly not reflective of the overall transfer rate. Further, most people attack Cooley one way or the other, whether it is over the school’s marketing, or any other statistic they choose as predication for their argument, it is merely a thinly veiled attempt at conveying their feelings of superiority. Further, in my section, there were two MDs, a PhD in Mechanical Engineering from one of the top engineering schools in this country, a neurobiologist, a genetic engineer, and one could not swing a dead cat without hitting an MBA. I will concede that Cooley admits many students that other schools do not admit. Attacking Cooley based on its own self ranking is as ludicrous. Of course a school is going to self promote itself and the real lunacy would be not to do so. Would you expect Wal-mart to say, “Come here, buy our clothing, but if you want the very best clothing, go to Bergdorf’s on Fifth Avenue?” Again, to “take it down a notch” so you will understand it, LOL @ Cooley, if it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck it is a duck and attacks like these and articles like these are what they are: thinly veiled attempts purporting the superiority of other schools while denigrating the largest law school in the Country.
Charles, I’ve tried to give you the benefit of the doubt and the opportunity to explain yourself, and I’ve tried several times to clarify the situation here. Now it is clear that one of these is true:
1) You really don’t understand the nature of the discussion. You erroneously believe positive individual experiences are relevant to a critique of a deceptive ranking system. You are emotionally incapable of accepting unqualified criticism of your alma mater when it is clearly in the wrong. You try various ways of defending Cooley including your personal story and the Wal-Mart analogy. By the way, it is fine for Wal-Mart to market its brand by advertising its strengths, but if it engaged in open deceit, that would cross the line. OR
2) You have bought into the same underdog paranoid delusion as “Cooley Grad” and others who see this discussion over Cooley’s ranking system as part of a cosmic academic war of elites vs. Joe the Plumbers. You think the top tier is out to get you and all the other hardworking graduates of bottom tier schools.
This is not about defending some alleged ivy league mentality of entitlement or every detail of the USNWR rankings, it is about flagrant (and frankly hilarious) self-deception that is found in Cooley’s ranking system. Almost any reasonable person can see that the Cooley ranking system is bogus, but there are examples on this thread of credulous students who bought into it and defended it. This is certainly not anything personal about Cooley (as opposed to other 4th tier law schools) or any of its individuals graduates. USNWR doesn’t rank the 4th tier schools any more specifically than “4th tier,” but you don’t find this kind of criticism of the other law schools in that bracket. Who is attacking the University of North Dakota Law School or the Appalachian School of Law? Nobody cares to go out of their way to criticize them because those schools don’t make fools of themselves pretending to be what they are not.
I fully understand the “nature” of the discussion, your vapid attempts at condescension not withstanding. There were many examples of statistics offered supra, and each time the statistics were attacked. USNWR uses one set of stats, and since the various supporters of those statistics saw fit to use them to criticize an organization that offers a different set of statistics, they simply and unquestioningly are motivated by elitism, hence the genesis of this article.
Look at the real logic here- 1) UNNWR comes out with statistics measuring law schools. 2) Person one agrees with the measurements generated and the means by which those conclusions were reached. 3) Person one then decides to use those statistics as a means of ridicule against a school who offers up a different perspective. 4) Person two comes in with other statistics in this thread, wholly valid measures of success, and Person one says, “Well those statistics are not good enough either.” 5) Person three says, “Well you are all missing the point and your logic is all flawed and you all have bad grammar and therefore we are right. If you offer up any statistics or any personal information to the contrary, you obviously and stupidly missed the boat on this discussion and run afoul of all that is decent and right in the world.”
It is amazing, if Cooley does well in something on a national level, in your mind, it is because they are large and have a larger pool of students upon which to draw. If they do well in some national competition, persons in this thread for all intensive purposes say only law review matters and Cooley will never have the law review that our school has or that this school has.” So statistics clearly do not matter to anyone here except the statistics they want to accept. If students from Cooley succeed, again it is because there is a large number graduating and even a blind squirrel can find a nut once in a while.
Happy now? A simple yes will suffice if you can manage to contain yourself to it.
Charles, I understand this is a very personal subject for you. Initially, you provided only your personal story as if that were relevant to the discussion of Cooley’s ranking system. Now, your comment betrays your own personal indignation, but nothing more. There is still time to make an actual reasoned argument on the subject itself. That is, if you have an actual position apart from your outrage.
I know that if you make an actual argument, there are those who would be willing to respond. But how can anyone respond to this rant?
I’ll just throw in my $0.02. I’m a 3L at Cooley and a non-traditional student. I’m married and have a family and work at a multi-billion dollar insurance company as an IT professional. I graduated from a Big 10 University.
When I was considering getting an MBA, I heard some of Cooley’s advertisements on the radio. I live just a few miles away. I decided to explore what Cooley had to offer. I discovered that they had a liberal admissions program and, if you scored high enough on the LSAT, you could get a free education. They also had a flexible weekend/evening program. There are numerous judges and practitioners in and around Lansing that went to Cooley. It has a reputation around here as a solid school that prepares you well for the bar and for practice.
I ended up scoring well on the LSAT so I do have a 100% scholarship. I’ve found that there are many professionals (accountants/CPAs, IT workers and even a doctor or two) in my weekend and evening classes. I’ve also found that Cooley is very hard work. As mentioned elsewhere, most exams are closed book. I feel that I know the law well and I’ve learned a lot. I’m in the top 8% of my class and am a non-voting board member on Law Review. I have an externship starting in September at the insurance company where I work.
In short, I couldn’t have positioned myself for a new career without Cooley and I am thankful for the opportunity to do so. I’ll admit that Cooley’s ranking system seems laughable; however, I also find US News’ ranking system to be equally absurd. I look forward to squaring off against lawyers from some of those “top schools” and winning for my clients because I have been forced to work hard and learn the law.
You may not have as much to worry about from the daytime students but if you run into any of the weekend/evening folks, you’d better prepare well. There’s a reason why Princeton Review lists us as having the 4th “most competitive students.”
http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/2009/10/princeton-reviews.html
I had to LOL @ both the Cooley Grad and those Yinzer Attorneys. Wouldn’t you all be better off doing other things with your time? Such detailed and long-term arguments on a website suggest that NEITHER side is very busy either studying at Pitt or performing billable hours.
By the way, all this talk about rankings seemed to miss the forest for the trees.
What is the forest you ask? Green. Like money. The bottom line in ANY argument. How much MONEY do a law school’s grads make annually? THIS IS WHY WE CHOOSE A SCHOOL.
END OF STORY.
Cooley Grad,
I am applying to Cooley Law for the fall 2011 semester. I have a few questions I would like to ask you about the school. For obvious reasons, I feel this is not the best venue to do so. If you don’t mind, send me an email at thomasc.barnes@dc.gov.
Thanks
Really, this is absurd.
Look, it’s about a chance to get a job, especially in this economy. I’m one who actually employs lawyers. Yes, I’m concerned about a school’s reputation. Nonetheless, I’m more concerned when looking at CVs, what courses are shown. I’m more concerned about bloody real life.
Some of us are not nor were ever meant to be law clerks or judges. We’re in the trenches. We deal with real (little) people and their day-to-day problems. Some people can do that; some cannot. Hiring is a crap shoot.
To be quite blunt, if all things were equal, I’d hire a Mizzou grad over a Cooley grad. Of course, I’d hire a Mizzou grad who came from a farm family who had a Skoal ring on the back of his jeans over a Harvard grad from the east coast, too. The reason is that my clients are more likely to relate well to the former as opposed to latter.
Cooley’s onanistic rankings are absurd. I get it. That doesn’t mean I wish its graduates ill or think they cannot be good lawyers. It’s all about individuals and giving people a chance to bust through the artificially imposed ceilings created by media ranking systems, which exists in law, medicine and every other endeavor in this country.
Regards.
Greetings,
I don’t normally take the time to contribute to these blogs, but I had a few extra minutes today. I will admit Cooley’s “Judging the Law School” is from a bias source; yet, the true quality of the school rests in its scholars.
Cooley is an “opportunity” for those students who excelled in undergrad but could not wrap their mind around the LSAT. This school provides ambitious students with the tools to become legal professionals and serve their communities. Some students choose to embrace Cooley’s gifts, while others discover that law is not their true calling.
I am a recent Cooley graduate (now attorney) who had the honor and privilege of externing for Chief United States District Court Judge and United States Bankruptcy Judge. I was granted this honor for my ability to conduct legal research and write.
Thanks to Cooley’s rigorous academics, I passed the bar exam on my first attempt and secured immediate employment. This success was attributed to Cooley’s requirement that all of its students take the following courses: Wills, Business Organizations, Secured Transactions, Tax, etc. All of these subjects were on the bar examination in my state. Unfortunately, some of my peers during bar review were panicking because these subjects were offered only as options at their school.
The bottom line is no matter where you chose to obtain your JD, make the best of your education. The hell with statistics. The goal is to use your education to help others.
I wish all of you the best of luck.
Opinions are like assholes; everyone’s got one and each thinks the other one stinks. Those who feel the need to put others down and flex their purported superiorities, are often substantially lacking as human beings. Haters should stop and try doing something more beneficial instead.
Seeing that this school was rated number 12 out of all the law schools in the US was the main reason I was choosing to apply.
I am seeing now that there are some people that disagree.
I am still making my decision.
I just wanted to say ~ thank you ~ to the all the pro’s and con’s.
I have a question, and no I’m not attacking…just curious. I’m a nurse so frankly, I don’t care about law school but my boyfriend currently attends Berkeley so I’m familiar with it to some extent… my question for all the Cooley people is: Did you get into anywhere else or was Cooley your *only* option? Basically, was it this place or nowhere?
Also, my god you people must have A LOT of time on your hands!!! Those posts are like books! My god, do you guys have jobs or is the unemployment rate issue actually accurate??? lol
Lillian,
I can’t speak for most Cooley students and Grads, but I can speak for many: those of us who went to Cooley who had extremely high undergrad GPAs and LSAT scores were offered very generous scholarships to go to Cooley. I would say that of all the individuals I met attending Cooley, about 60% of them were on a very generous scholarship that totalled 50-100% of tuition. I can’t speak for everyone, but I was admitted to 12 different law schools, one of them top 10. I just liked the price and generous scholarship of Cooley much better. My bank account to this day thanks me for my decision.
*Editorial note by Michael* -@ Lillian I think this claim is 100% false. If you can get into a top 10 school, schools from 40-60 offer full scholarships. There truly is no reason to go from that to literally the lowest ranked school in all of America. I’ll be damned if someone gets “Conned into Cooley”. Provide me with any evidence that substantiates this claim.
Ha ha ha…this thread’s creator is a joke. I popped back on just now to see what new absurdities have sprouted from these clowns’ mouths to see that many of my–and other–opinions were removed by the moderator. Wow, it must be easy for you to look like the winner of the argument when your side is the only one allowed to show up. I can’t wait for you to get into real life and real courtrooms. You’re going to have your heads handed to you (by Cooley grads like me). I won’t be visiting this thread again. You kids are pathetic. P.S. – You’d better delete this before anyone sees you being made fun of.
What’s actually not a joke is if you Google “Thomas Cooley Law School” this article is on the first page! ha!
But seriously, I delete your comments when they personally attack me. For example, “joke”, “clown”, “pathetic” then into some rant about how in real life heads will be handed to us. In my editorial opinion your comment not only adds nothing to conversation, but it severely detracts from it.
On another note, the utterly inability to grasp the foolishness of an argumentum ad hominem logical fallacy stuns me.
Actually, these logical errors are exactly why I posted this originally. Cooley’s Judging The Law Schools is an example of an epic logic fail.
Cooley Grad, I get that you have a personal attachment to the school but the metrics show that both incoming and outgoing statistics are abysmal. Sure, I get that Cooley has to advertise itself in a positive light, but right now Cooley is like a sleazy half drunk car salesman that sold you a lemon.
There is an ethical and moral standard that academia represents. Cooley’s advertisements to future law students are the epitome of the filth that accrues without proper industry standards.
Wow,
I just wasted 1 hr and 47 minutes reading this thing and another 5 min typing this post. Let me calm some things down before I post. You people argue this point like you have something to lose. Mike (and friends)…you are at Pitt…wonderful. COOLEYGRAD (and Cooley’s defenders) …you went to Cooley…splendid. Here’s what you mental midgets forgot about…
Does it really matter where you went to law school? The answer is no.
Or is there real question whether you have a JD or not. Someone posted earlier, and I’m not sure who, that what really matters is the type of person you are after it’s all said and done. I mean, I feel like after reading this colloquium that you three (Mike, CooleyGrad and Manes) are not normal humans. Not to get too deep or philosophical for you, but there is more to life than law school. Really, I mean it. Yes one day you will all be high paid attorneys and be able to buy 10 Droid Xs and sit around and talk about Pitt or Cooley and how much better they are then everywhere else. However, life is going to pass you by. You all are on a path to destruction. Try this, walk away from the blog and go work for a day at the shelter or soup kitchen. WHOA! The what? With “those” people? Yes, those people. You want to really boost that resume? Start a charitable organization. DO SOMETHING DIFFERENT. Develop yourself. Not a student, but a contributing American.
This blog is what wrong with the world. I admit there were some posts that made sense. I am going to put a halt to this evil. I am in my 3rd yr at Cooley so I’m sure that Mike and friends will discredit every word I type, but here it goes:
1) I do believe, and everyone else should believe that “Judging Law Schools” or whatever the article is…was hi…LARIOUS! I mean, I really think they wrote it for comic relief. But seriously, Mike is right. Cooley needs to step back and embrace what they are. A 4th Tier school. We have some smart kids and some dull ones. End of story.
2) Statistics don’t mean shit in the real world. I don’t know if any of you know any practicing attorneys or if you have interviewed with anyone yet…no one cares. People in a firm need you to produce. End of story. Where you went is a non-factor.
3) Cooley does work you to death, but I pretty, there are some students other law schools that work just as hard.
4) Cooley grads/students cannot hate on me for this post because it is all true.
Dillon,
What— 1hr 45mins reading the article and comments at 1:22 in the morn? You should be studying for finals later this week…. And with that so should I. Good Luck
This has been an interesting argument on both sides. I appreciate everyone’s input and insight. I’m 34, a changing career professional (insurance adjuster and landlord) and will probably be going to Cooley because of the scholarship offer and from what it sounds, it’s a focused on getting you out and working asap. I’ve been an entrepreneur for some time now and have no intention of trying to work for a big name firm so I could give a rat’s ass about how they recruit. I’ve already settled a little over 2,000-3,000 insurance claims in the course of my work so I have every intention of opening a one man shop immediately after school and Cooley seems the best option of getting the J.D. and minimizing school bills. I’m going to need that money to operate an office.
Also I have to say I’ve hired at least three attorneys in the course of my business and my divorce and between my business contacts (mostly other landlords), we’ve probably hired about 15 collectively. None of us knew or cared where our attorneys went to school, with one exception that went to John Marshall and he only knew that because the attorney had been a friend for years.
It strikes me that you have to choose the school based on your background, personality and the career path you want to choose and I think Cooley’s approach will fit well with me.
You have no clue of what you are talking about. The legal profession is a preofession that is based on where you went to school. Don’t try to justify why you want to attend Cooley with your decision is not doing your homework with fact finding about where the lawyers to select to work with you on your issues went to school and what their AV rating is.
If you are interested in going to law school and one day practicing, you better learn to do investigating work on people you will work with. . .
I have every clue kid. I’ve been working with attorneys for over half a decade settling claims up to 2 million dollars in size. I own half a million dollars in rental property in Northern Indiana and every attorney I hire makes about the same to do evictions no matter where they went to school. My buddy’s attorney who went to John Marshall makes more than another friend of mine who’s a deputy prosecutor that went to Notre Dame. In the real world no one outside of other lawyers gives a damn about AV ratings. As I said, I have no intention of working for a firm so why would I take on $100,000 in school debt on top of all the other costs associated with starting a business? You need to learn a little bit of respect about how people choose their path in life. You may run across someone who has a different opinion and design than you and they may not be as impressed with your magnificence as you are.
Just as a matter of debate, can we stay away from personal examples and try to use averages, numbers, something tangible.
For instance, average grad from school X in field X.
It not reasonable to compare a private salary of a Cooley person to a public salary of an NYU person – or vice versa.
“Just as a matter of debate, can we stay away from personal examples and try to use averages, numbers, something tangible. ”
This is a very shallow comment considering it was just 9 days ago that you wrote:
“Now, to the question of why did I write it… It’s simple, I was cruising the Facebook one day and I noticed one of my friends decided to go to Cooley. “
That’s not shallow at all. I was asked a pointed question on why I wrote the article and my inspiration was in part due to comments by my friend. Specifically, I thought her particular ideas of Cooley were not born out by impartial evidence.
But if I did use a personal example in a way inconsistent with my statement above, I would be in the wrong. A personal example is the least persuasive – especially on the internet with absolutely no verification of claims.
Then I will outright challenge your assertion with my own that personal examples are key to an industry where 62% of practitioners (as of 2005 as reported by the ABA) operate as solo practitioners. Your assertion that we should compare salaries to salaries is flawed because you are assuming it presents and overall picture of the trade when in fact it relies on data of the shrinking minority of attorneys that are on salaried positions.
I don’t care about ranking systems, ABA’s or Cooley’s, and neither will your clients unless they themselves are attorneys. The real measure of the future of this business is can you survive and are you fiscally solvent upon graduation? This is the advantage of Cooley I was mentioning – the opportunity to earn your way to mitigating law schools costs.
And so what if Cooley has a shady ranking system. Did you happen to read the NY Times expose yesterday 1/9/2010 on what they call the “Enron-type accounting standards” that the ABA is engaged in? Every law school has a shady ranking system. High salaries are a pipe dream anymore in this business. It’s time to stop thinking like high paid employees and to start thinking like business operators and you’re going to need to be able to cut your costs to free up operating expenses and undercut your competition.
I will outright reply you are wrong because of the “Anecdotal Evidence Fallacy”. Or just Google “logic error & personal experience”.
A similar logic fail would be to say “I have had to explain basic logic fallacies to multiple people from Cooley and none to people from Pitt. Thus, Cooley people are significantly worse at logic.” My personal experience with this statement, while perhaps verified by other data like the LSAT, is not by itself reasonable.
TiminMishawaka :
You Cooley folks just rant and rant, Michael is saying that you have to compare apples to apples.
This idea that personal stories matter is a statistical absurdity. You MUST measure the students on the whole and compare them directly with students from other schools doing the same thing.
Personal examples are just not valid. You are wrong, but this is like talking to a brick wall.
This was an immensely interesting read. From what I can tell some of these Cooley defenders can be a little overbearing and as I see it the author of this blog primarily wishes to point out some of his concerns regarding Cooley’s claims.
However, from what I can tell (and let’s remember that all my info is supplied from this article and its comments) Cooley is something of a formidable ‘plan b’ but with a large caveat. By this I mean it allows those who typically have little chance of getting into a respected law school an opportunity (provided they are willing to work their butts off) to attain their dream of attaining a reputable law degree, provided they transfer out. Conducive to this idea is that Cooley appears to ‘work’ their students hard, thusly better preparing them.
Of course this is my perception of the issue at hand. I don’t attend law school nor do I intend to, however I do sympathize with those who struggle with standardized testing because I do myself. Yet knowing that there may be an avenue for people such as me is comforting.
*I must state for the record however that I personally would stray away from completing a law degree at Cooley especially if transferring is indeed the accessible option it appears to be. I mean this is the real world, reputation undoubtedly matters. And furthermore I’m less than impressed with Cooley’s attempt at bolstering their reputation, I mean really, it’s quite transparent. Nevertheless, that isn’t to say that if you don’t work hard you can’t succeed and Cooley could just be someone’s ladder.
**Coffee at 10pm is NEVER a good idea.
I agree with this post. The “rating” provided by the school’s administration is silly — and I’m one of the overbearing Cooley grads who is now a practicing attorney.
Cooley clearly is not a “top” law school. As a graduate from Cooley, it does bug me that they advertise it this way. However, no one really believes those claims or is fooled into going there because of them. For me, the ranking system is mostly about the school legacy and entrance standards. Higher tiers have higher acceptance standards that filter for “high performers.” This generally does mean that their incoming classes are more elite than lower tiers. But how does one measure the classes 3 years later when they are graduating? The only way you can — the Bar passage rates.
Some background on their students: Cooley attracts some very smart students who could get into Top Tier 1 schools, but instead choose to recieve steep tuition discounts at Cooley. It also attracts some other bright kids that either partied too much in college to the detriment of their GPA, or didn’t have money for a LSAT prep course. Finally, there are a fair share of ‘tards that go there, but they are usually part of the 30% that get failed out in the first 3 semesters. For what it is worth, I had a handful of friends transfer to Michigan State (one to Cornell!) after their first year, and they told me that they thought Coooley was far tougher.
The thing about this school is, they will give you a shot to succeed, graduate, and pass the Bar. Obviously, if you can get into Northwestern or U of M, go there because it will give you more options after graduation, but don’t let anything stop you from becoming an attorney. In the end, it is what you make it. Just know that law firms will not recieve you the same as they would if you went to U of Michigan, etc.
Again, the fallacies.
1. (almost) no reasonable person would attend Cooley for the “steep tuition discounts” when they have the option of practically any scholarship at a T1. Given the comparative employment prospects, this is a terrible ROI.
2. “kids that [] partied too much in college”?!? How can this be?!? I thought Cooley was full of the hardest workers who are going to outwork all the T1 grads and hand them their heads on platters!
3. again, 1L year is universally more difficult than 2L, especially in an environment where a) a significant portion of the class is deliberately failed out and b) the students are scrambling all over each in a hypercompetitive feeding frenzy for the precious good jobs/tickets out.
Also, people should let some things “stop [them] from becoming an attorney”: scoring at Cooley-level on the LSAT and failing out are both indications that the dream is not going to become reality.
Well, as a current Cooley student who didn’t do well as an undergrad and didn’t do well on the LSAT… yeah-I’m lazy like that, I can own up to it-and doesn’t care about my puncuation on th e internets, I wanted to chime in here. My first term at cooley I was disappointed. The Intro. to Law class is clearly an attempt to bring those who should not be in law school up to speed. I got nothing from that class. The severe attendance policy that Cooley blames on the ABA is also highly irritating when you have professors that do not help you and waste three hours of your week for 14 weeks. I have had two professors that I felt I benefited from attending their classes. Still, let’s all be adults if we can and admit that law school is not an academic setting, it really isn’t, it’s about whether you can hack it or not and the professors are not there to hold you hand, so all this isn’t really my issue. My problem with cooley is that the administration really doesn’t care, and I mean really doesn’t care. I don’t know if it’s appropriate to get into specifics, not that I would anyway, but cooley’s admin. really is all about the reputation of the law school and individual students mean nothing to them. The branch campuses have small numbers of admin. who strike me as awesome people-Grand Rapids, etc-and I know this because I’ve taken classes all over the place since I’m one of those lucky few who have to work while in school-kids, adult bills, etc. However, when one really needs something such as an increase in the cost of attendance for a term to continue in law school the administration in Lansing couldn’t care less, and I’m in the top fourth of my class, so if they don’t care about me it makes me wonder about those struggling. Then there is the issue of transferring, which I would recommend and which I plan on doing myself. I have been told point blank by professors, and heard it told in class, that professors do not like to provide transfer recommendations. This of course means that if you go to them for one they will write a bad one, so obviously that’s how they get out of writing them at all. The admin. again creates problems for people trying to get the letter from the dean for the transfer app. A friend of mine was actually refused and had to start coming up with reasons she wanted the letter, settling on not being able to get into a class. The admin. actually put her in the class and told her she no longer needed to transfer. Of course this is second hand to me, and then offered up to the internet gods and so means nothing, but one thing that is meaningful is patterns, and cooley has a pattern of giving people an icky feeling if you will, especially the ones who go there. Now, I can’t defend the nonsensical ratings cooley provides any more than the first year attrition rate, but I also don’t know how things are at other schools either. Having said all of this the author of this piece is so outrageously biased and so blatantly offensive and hypocritical, any and all criticisms of cooley presented by him are meaningless. Michael is it? You want intelligent conversation? Well, as the conversation starter that begins with you, and on that point you failed miserably. You cannot sound clever but say things that would get you beaten up if you were face to face with someone and then cry “don’t attack me, don’t attack me” and expect people to take you seriously. Cooley’s problems are legion, so if you really are so clever why don’t you attack an institution that requires you to use that massive brain of yours, rather than just picking on the weak kid? Your piece here provides nothing new and adds nothing to a long running discourse about Cooley, so what exactly did you write if for?
Matt, there is a distinction between disallowing personal attacks while allowing argument/debate/logical attacks. I think it is at the core of fostering intelligent conversation to discourage the former and I will use my editorial judgment to delete merit-less personal attacks. The act of not publishing the equivalent of a “your fat” type of argument doesn’t bother me, I don’t feel obligated to allow it. It is merely a cry to not be attacked in a certain capacity.
Now, to the question of why did I write it… It’s simple, I was cruising the Facebook one day and I noticed one of my friends decided to go to Cooley. I struck up a conversation and it turned out the decision was made in large part due to Cooley’s Judging the Law Schools. Like another commenter on this thread, she was beguiled and seduced by a publication so racked with absurdity it screams fraud.
David and I pointed out instances when certain Cooley claims had a factual basis so thin it was more aptly described as a deliberate distortion. For example when David stated, “15.4% unemployment 9 months after graduation for Cooley!!?? Holy shit, man. Potentially several more percent out of the 11% who didn’t provide data!?! “. I hate hate hate when people try to assert something based on a regurgitation of manipulated/faulty/select sets of data that obscure the truth. Cooley’s ranking system and the claims it makes to incoming students, at least to me, are worthy of scorn.
Last, with the backdrop of the for-profit college and the federal loan scheme, I can’t help but notice several striking similarities…….
Sorry man but I don’t buy it. Your friend wants to go to cooley because of some stat he/she finds on the cooley website, and this prompts you to write this scathing article about the whole school, which if you did your research you would have easily found has all been said many times before? Why not just have your friend do their own research, or if they are really stupid enough to buy into what any institution says about itself let your friend suffer the consequences and maybe learn something. No, you wrote this because you like to start fights and/or have some personal grudge or it gets your website hits or whatever, which isn’t a crime, just don’t pretend you had some noble cause here, you didn’t. You also don’t get to decide what constitutes an insult when thrown at you and when you throw them yourself. Sorry man, seriously, you are nothing but hypocritical and condescending throughout this whole blog, which is odd because even as a cooley student all you have to do is stick to the facts and you win. Your need to insult and then cry victim at the same time betrays you as false, which is again why you picked on the little guy here in cooley, it was easy for you. Again, old news man, find another dead horse to whip.
Between my personal friend, the contributor “1hardworkingStudent” posting “Seeing that this school was rated number 12 out of all the law schools in the US was the main reason I was choosing to apply”, and the epidemic of deception & fraud at for-profit (admittedly undergraduate) schools, suggests to me that people likely have relied in some capacity on Cooley’s highly suspect numbers. In fact, people who have defended Cooley on this thread have presented arguments based on Cooley’s numbers which were later shown to be false.
Either way Cooley’s presentation of data to incoming students, even if easily debunked by a prudent investigation, still seems unethical at best – nobody deserves to be tricked and to suffer because of it.
I graduated from TMC Law School ten plus years ago. Back then it was semi-marginal. Many Michigan Public Employees(Judges, Prosecutors, Et Al) graduated from TMC. It was a noble egalitarian experiment that took in anyone, and ousted many, through hard-earned attrition. If you survived their Boot-Camp Adversative Method(See U.S. Marines), you were sure to pass the Bar Exam and had a good chance to make it as an Attorney. But around the year 2000, when many States got rid of Affirmative Action, Cooley took advantage of socially promoted persons with no hope to be admitted anywhere else. Armed with the full faith and credit of the U.S. Department of Education Student Loan funding, it has become a Ponzi-Scheme. If I could go back in time and drop-out, I would.
Since then, I have had to practice law solo. No one would hire me! In pursuit of reducing my student loan debts, I even volunteered for extreme-danger duty in Iraq and Afghanistan. With Thomas M.Cooley on my resume, they would not even consider me for suicide duties.
The definition of Fraud is “Intentional mis-representation of a material fact with intent to induce reliance for material gain”. Thomas M. Cooley fits this on all elements. Maybe I should use that awesome Cooley Education to sue them to get my Money back plus interest.
The Cooley Experiment has gone off the rails, -the Feds need to pull the plug. You have been warned!
Stupid people and minorities should get a shot at law school too. Cooley is serving a niche that otherwise would be discriminated against intellectually and educationally. As long as the government needs lawyers there will be a place for Cooley. It’s the American way.
In scanning this vitriolic debate, I notice that is exclusively only you younger folks who are trading barbs but there virtually no older generation Senior Partner-types who are weighing in as to whether we will consider (let alone hire) Cooley Graduates.
In this wildly dismal legal market, not a chance. With Cooley’s Come-One-Come-All Admission Policy, what we see is a flood of Resumes from these Least Common Denominators who scraped by passage of the bar only to be dumped onto the open market with no prospect in the slightest of getting a worthy legal job.
The kid from Cooley that cut my neighbor’s grass two summers ago earns $14,000 per year doing collections work and still cannot get a break, except to break my heart.
He cut grass to supplement his poverty. I’ll bet he still gets included in Cooley’s massaged stats.
Look at the PRINT version of Martindale Hubbell. The chances of a Cooley grad getting hired by a Fifty Lawyer Plus Michigan Firm are not very good; in my experience it is very rare. Even in MIchigan’s glory days, you only hired Cooley Grads to save money, if you hired them at all.
Look, I have a top 10% Boston College kid on waivers right now because the economy is so bad; why the hell should I take a chance on a grade-inflated out-of-state loser from Cooley? The Graduates of the Top 25 Law Schools are begging for employment. What do these Graduates of the Law School of Last Resort offer me as an employer? What?
Four Campuses with over a THOUSAND Students, not including including the “Weekend Law School that caters to out-of-staters who jet to Lansing every Friday night to fly out every Sunday night [now THERE is a real Law School Experience for you], Cooley is a Proprietary Law School in the worst possible sense of that facially denigratory term.
The real fraud is not in Cooley’s absurd stats but in the ABA allowing these pirates to continue to “teach”.
It is not possible for readers of this blog to have missed it, but the scam of Law Schools generally in the Times found should have taken even more deadly aim at this sinkhole. See http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/09/business/09law.html?_r=1&sq=Law%20School%20Worth%20It&st=cse&adxnnl=1&scp=1&adxnnlx=1296155323-gaP1hTdjlNpKXyVQ5J2zPw
By the way I am 65 and a graduate of a tier 4 school so there is no Ivy snobbery here.
As a second term Cooley student I couldn’t disagree more with the unnecessary belittling that TMC receives. Two of my former undergrad roomates and myself all decided to attend lawschool. When I went home for Christmas it magically turns out that we all learned the same material, from the same textbooks, in the same order. Whether it was a tier one school, as one of my good friends attends or Cooley, there is only so many ways to teach and learn the law and it was apparent to me that it is not the school you attend but what you take out of it. Think about this question, how many clients are ever going to approach you and say “Where did you go to law school?”…not many if any at all and I would be hard pressed to find any attorney who would disagree with me. Let the debate continue…
I am in my second semester at Cooley, so my blog, unlike others, is from FIRSTHAND experience.
Cooley Law School provides an incredible and rigorous curriculum for those searching to work in the legal market. The ONLY premise that supports the argument that Cooley is a “Crap shoot” law school is the fact that Cooley actually gives people a chance. Despite their lenient admissions policies, Cooley’s curriculum is the same, if not, more difficult than other law schools’ programs. So, just because they let a lot of people in doesn’t mean that it let’s a lot of people graduate with JD’s.
Moreover, the flexible program and multi-campuses allows people to receive a legal education who could not otherwise be able to because of scheduling conflicts. These students ought to be applauded. I would hire someone who worked during the week and did law school on the weekends. That is gutsy! That shows me they are willing to bring everything to the plate, that they truly are a hard worker, and when things need to get done, they will get it done.
The bottom line is: Shut up. Work hard. Do your best. Get your degree. Pass the Bar. Practice. And be the very best lawyer you can be. Cooley prepares people to be good lawyers. I know, because I ACTUALLY GO THERE. So, I will work hard, do my best, get my degree, pass the Bar, practice, and be the very best lawyer I can for my clients, because, really, that’s ALL THAT MATTERS.
Cool anecdote, bro. Despite the same books, I’m sure you weren’t being taught by the same caliber professors or engaging the material in the midst of the same caliber classmates. Even if we accept your assumption that no client will ask where an attorney went to law school (which begs the question of why major firms post biographical information on their website, and why every attorney’s site I’ve ever seen mentions the source of the JD), they kind of don’t need to since they can assume the ‘best’ firms will have hired the ‘best’ associates, typically the ‘best’ students at the ‘best’ schools. So even if the question doesn’t arise explicitly, it’s implicit in the client’s selection of firm representation.
Is it true that Thomas M. Cooley Law School is opening another campus? This would be 5.
All of you Cooley Law Students are using your overblown oratorical skills to whistle in the dark.
You have been swindled.
You are engaged in the Law School Equivalent of the Stockholm Syndrome.
Try to transfer out to see what the real legal academicians really think of you.
And when you find out the odious truth upon graduation, don’t tell us you were not warned.
http://thomas-cooley-law-school-scam.weebly.com/1/post/2011/02/the-thomas-m-cooley-law-school-scam3.html#comments
That link thoroughly eviscerated Thomas Cooley. These concerns should merit a re-evaluation of accreditation. I wonder if any Thomas Cooley students would be interested in a lawsuit alleging fraud. Hmmm.
All we need to do is figure out how to get this to the top of the Google search results page, the same way this page is! That will TRULY give all prospective Cooley students the 4-1-1 on ALL YOU NEED TO KNOW ABOUT WASTING YOUR TIME, MONEY, AND LIFE AT COOLEY LAW
Cooley is proud to announce that it is now NUMBER TWO in the Nation, just behind Harvard but well ahead of Yale. HUH???????????SAY WHAT?????????????????
See:
http://michiganlawyerblog.wordpress.com/2011/02/17/cooley-law-school-were-number-2/
Is there no Attorney that will not sue Cooley on a Class Action basis for fraud?
Please note that Cooley now “accepts” FIVE THOUSAND applications each year. About Four Thousand students attend at any one given time.
For the vast majority that washes out, the bad news only comes out for the detritus being swept out in the fifth or sixth week of the following semester, but only after the 100% mark has been passed for tuition return.
Why does not the ABA stop this shocking scam?
The only time I see Cooley graduates trying cases in Court is on flotsam and jetsam no one who has a real practice would ever accept.
Cooley is very proud of its rankings among Moot Court Teams finishes.
But……….. Cooley has numerically FOUR times the number of any large law school so they can carefully pick over the selections for those who prevail at any price.
And……….. the rumor is that these students get major financial help and are expected to prepare like a full time job, I am told. Quaere, do good grades get thrown in as well, like Football scores?
As an employer in the relevant market, I would not ever hire these sad folks.
First of all, refusing to hire someone based only on where they attended law school betrays that you’re either not an employer, or a very dumb one. Why not refuse to hire them on the basis of their skin color? Secondly, the grades at Cooley are actually inflated DOWN. There are no +’s, and -’s are calculated at the .5 rate, not .75 of some schools, and yes, the testing procedures there are tough, although I would not call them hard if one simply keeps up. Cooley did not do as Harvard and many other Ivy League law schools did recently and actually go back and inflate the grades of graduates to be more in line with the new inflated grading system they are now using, so going to Cooley does hurt a bit when competing with grade inflated graduates of other schools. Having said that and being a Cooley student, the ranking system and the McCampus attitude-4 at the present time-of the school is very embarrassing to students. We are either forced to look bad by speaking ill of our school, remain silent about it and let others think what they will-and that is usually bad because of the way Cooley represents itself-or look silly standing up for a fourth tier school that purports to be the #2 school in the country. Cooley really does a disservice to it’s students, which from personal experience I know the administration has very little interest in. The professors there are all awesome, they really are, the administration, not so much. The grade scam of posting grades four weeks into the following term is a huge problem, but one that again, the administration could care less about since as you mentioned, they appear to profit from, but I did hear that if you do flunk out Cooley sends back all your loan money for that term, although I have not flunked out so I don’t know for sure. The Cooley argument is the classic example of extremists on all sides, those who hate it and those who defend it-and publish silly ranking systems. Cooley does give a chance to those who would not otherwise get it, but it also embarrasses itself and it’s students seemingly on an impossible scale. Calling all Cooley students sad folks and that you would never hire one, well, you need not worry, as no self respecting person-Cooley grad. or otherwise-would ever work for such a intellectually inferior, narrow minded person such as yourself anyway.
“First of all, refusing to hire someone based only on where they attended law school betrays that you’re either not an employer, or a very dumb one. Why not refuse to hire them on the basis of their skin color?”
Because skin color isn’t a proxy for intelligence/ability. Law school, while admittedly imperfect, does the job much better.
No, wait, I think I agree with the Michigan Employer’s Point.
Matt agrees that this “Law School” is really an embarrassing “School For Scandal” where national rankings are fudged, Moot Court “Ringers” are hand picked, grades are fudged “downwards” and 80% of the Student Body have no bloody business being in the study of Law in the first place. No Matt that isa what you said.
Such a Law School makes for systemic of fraud, self seeking aggrandizement and self-promotion. So why not condemn the students that stay with such a Pirate Ship as ethicallyundesirable?
Really, now, if where you went to school makes no difference Matt then getting into Harvard or Yale or Michigan or Stanford should not even appear on your resume.
Think about it Matt. Cooley has made YOU a self-delusional liar.
Wow, lol. First off, not a lie was told in my post, so swing and a miss there. Second, I never said it didn’t matter where you went to law school, only that judging someone on that alone is silly, so strike two. Speculating as to what a law school like Cooley does and expressing it as fact is strike three, and that means you’re out and I can’t continue a discussion with those so unable to reason they swing and miss three times when it’s really a game where you’re pitching to yourself. Take care.
We give up Matt your mind is all the way made up and all the shut.
In the same way it is not possible to convince a man who derives his livelihood and his status in the community directly from his employer, arguing passionately that his employer– or here, his Law School– is a scoundrel is truly hopeless. Since your legal future very strongly depends upon your refusal to see what is there to be seen, we are wasting time in a debate that requires your objectivity and your seeing the Elephant in the drawing room.
Paraphrasing an old dictum, you can always tell a Student from Cooley Law School, you just cannot ever tell him much.
Fred
I dont think you have the ability or capability to even know how to use a legal finding aid correctly.
Is legal finding aid the official term?
http://vitality.yahoo.com/video-second-act-sara-delaney-24619252
Better to be a cooley grad that this lady.
Great discussion, but assuming, arguendo, your theories about Cooley and the ranking system are correct, you still have to give homage to whomever passes the Bar regardless of where they obtained their degree.
Arguably, you are comparing Cooley to other schools based on important criteria, but you have to admit that it does graduate some good lawyers, just like other schools, including the top rated ones, do not all graduate good lawyers. Inter alia, you are disrespecting many good lawyers who graduated from Cooley as well as over glorifying some lawyers from top tier schools who may not be worthy.
Do not take this as an Ad hominem… your facts and argument deserve some merit, but they are clearly biased. This is visible in the passion you exhibit in the course of your arguments. There definitely is some anchoring in your arguments and you seem to discard other factors that make some people go to Cooley by choice.
1. I don’t have to pay homage to people who pass a test with a 90% passage rate. Frankly, a number that high is somewhat disconcerting.
2. I do admit that it is a virtual certainty that it does graduate some good lawyers as well as top schools graduate terrible lawyers. But arguing polar ends is silly, we should be discussing overall averages, trends, and aggregate statistics.
3. I don’t know my facts and argument would be biased… no one takes the Cooley rankings seriously so there is absolutely no competition. And again, sure, some people may go to Cooley because of a free ride, location, or something else, but looking at the income LSAT scores it is a solid assumption that they were probably rejected everywhere else.
This year Cooley beat 95 other ABA law schools to become the 2011 Client Counseling Competition National Champions. Next week (April 6-9) Cooley represents the United States at the World Championships–against 20 countries–in the Netherlands.
In 2009, Cooley made it to the Client Counseling Competition Semi-Finals. In 2010, Cooley made it to the Client Counseling Competition Finals.
That’s great! Never heard of the Client Counseling Competition before… But I am sure you are going to remind me every single time Cooley wins anything. The isolated examples don’t debunk the numerous statistics that suggest Cooley is lacking.
Well, depending on the metric it might debunk the idea that Cooley is lacking. However, I will agree that most, and I do mean most, metrics that are accepted by the wide variety of educated people would not let these examples debunk the statistics that suggest Cooley is lacking.
The US News, Cooley’s and all other ranking systems are equally arbitrary. As a practitioner a decade out of a large state law school, I’ve practiced with graduates from all sorts of law schools. Without exception, I have observed it is the character of the practitioner and not his alma mater that matters most. Whether at Yale or Cooley, you get out of it what you put in.
Cooley is hardly any more of an embarrassment than the elitism that corrupts so many in our field.
ಠ_ಠ
“Equally arbitrary” I think not. What metric do you use to define “equally.” US News is arbitrary I’ll be the first to say that. US News is biased as well. However, I doubt it is “equally” as self serving in its bias as Cooley’s ranking is. US News might be influenced by big names, but not to the extent that Cooley is influenced by its own blatantly self serving nature.
The way that the article sould read is “Thomas M. Cooley Law School’s ranking system is an embarrassment.” The article’s title is deseaving. For anyone attending Cooley now, or those of you who are considering attending Cooley do not let these posting scare or discourage you. Cooley will provide you with a good legal education, and as long as you work hard you will have sucess in this world.
There is nothing wrong with Cooley giving students the opportunity to get a legal education. But, remember, only those who are willing to work hard will survive-those that work hard will graduate from the school and get a job. But because Cooley’s has a large student body it is easy to slip by without trying. Just remember you are there to learn the law and how to apply it. Being a lawyer is a proffession, it is not a part-time job, it’s not even a normal job. It is your life.
Cooley will give you the tools, all you have to do is figure out how to use them, and if you really want to do this type of work the rest of your life.
I suspect the only person being “deseaved” is you. Cooley’s tawdry little list is promoted by the administration and used for deceptive advertising to students. It is so egregious by any objective standard that highlighting it serves to undermine Cooley’s credibility as a whole.
I just graduated from Cooley. Cooley does provide one with an ABA degree that is one which can be used to practice in any state. However, outside of Michigan the degree is not recognizable. Many students, I included, plan or have completed LLM degrees at other schools to build connections in the area of practice they want to go into and to tap into those same jobs from those regional universities they are interested in.
Cooley alumni outside of Michigan is a very strong one and one of the reasons you go to law school is for membership rights to that new club.
From what I have heard it is about as meaningful as a Costco membership. Seriously, how can you intelligently rely on such a frivolous assertion when Cooley has some of the lowest employment and salary statistics? I understanding defending the degree you sunk over 100k into, but with claims like these you sound like a paid shill for Cooley. This claim, like that of your alma matter, is so similar to outright lying I am hard pressed to find the difference.
Mr. Kraemer,
I would have thought a law student of your caliber would have learned to proofread things at such a fine legal institution as the one you attend. “I understanding defending the degree” caught my eye. I’m just saying….
I have defamed my entire institution by leaving an ‘ing’ inappropriately in a sentence. Forget attacking my grammar, address the main issue about the dubious claim concerning the alumni network.
Again, the issue is this: Are Cooley Grads employable?
At a dinner where several Managing Partners on my acquaintance were present, I posed this query to them.
Two of the three said NFW, in effect, in more polite language.
The Third, from a large firm famous for taking absolutely everyone and anyone who had business, no matter how stupid, made it clear that they could expect a paycheck until the family business dried up.
I’d like to know which managing partners at which law firms said that Cooley Grads were unemployable. All of the Cooley graduate Judges and politicians in the State of Michigan would be very interesting in hearing that horsebleep.
They might be interested in hearing it. However, that does not imply that what the hiring managers said was wrong or flawed. Never say “All” either. That is a horrible mistake lots of you “bush league” legal folks make when making a statement. If you do not know all the judges and politicians and know their views than what you have made what a professor of mine would call an “utterly retarded statement.”
Cooley grads are absolutely employable. I graduated in 2009 and passed the MI and NY bar exams on my first attempt. I started looking for a job in March of 2009 and I was hired by the State of Michigan less than two months later. I was told there were 200 applicants for the two positions.
I decided to leave Michigan about two months ago, as I’m not a big fan of the ultra-conservative pockets that exist all over the place here. I started applying for federal jobs on USAJobs less than two months ago. I probably applied for twelve to fifteen jobs all over the country. Earlier this month I had an interview for one of the positions. During the interview, I attempted to gauge my chances at being hired, and I asked whether the response they had during the three days the ad ran was overwhelming. I was told they received 255 applications in 72 hours and were hiring 24 attorneys from that pool.
I happened to be one of them. I am moving to the east coast early next month to start. The job is 40-hours a week–with overtime offered, but not required–and has a starting salary of $63,000/year. With the awful economic climate, I imagine that many attorneys from “better” law schools would kill to start at that salary…or to even receive a job offer. Plus, there are no billable hours and I won’t be owned by my firm. It’s a great job, and I’m excited to have it. My experiences are personal, but they suggest that Cooley students are not only employable, but desired.
I’m sure Cooley will start to get a better response rate on it’s employment data, given the employ-ability of which you speak. And since you claim Cooley students are desired, your schoolmates shouldn’t have to spend two months looking for a job but should be able to count on being hired by graduation.
I’m not putting attorneys from Cooley down. I’ve personally hired one before. Of course, he wasn’t fresh out of law school but has practiced for several years.
Since you want to boast about your personal experience, here’s another story about the desirability of Cooley grads. A navy veteran and winner of a Navy Achievement Medal went to Cooley where he did well. He applied for the JAG Corps, but was initially turned down. After other people backed out, he was eventually accepted. The Navy then told its own decorated veteran that he was originally passed over because he went to Cooley.
No, they do not suggest that Cooley students are employable or desired. They suggest, only, that one Cooley student was employable. You have not defined what you mean by desirable so I’ll leave that out of my response. Your experience does not suggest that Cooley grads are employable because you are a singular object. Multiple experiences from others like you would suggest that more than one student is employable. Learn to be logical when you make an assertion. Fuzzy Logic (and I am not talking about the branch of mathematics that goes by that name) is not Logic.
Should I distill Just the Facts’s entire argument? Here goes!
Positive conclusion about the employability of Cooley grads! Single personal experience as premise! Missing assumption? That his/her experience is representative of all Cooley grads. The numbers, common sense, and elementary logic say it isn’t.
To wit, it’d be really great if a Cooley partisan could reply with something other than a) a personal anecdote with minimal basis in fact and zero corroboration or b) highly skewed, clearly manipulated numbers (e.g., February 2009 bar passage as proxy for historic performance).
Cooley has ranked very high in its competitions. Sometimes only loosing to a school like Harvard. It would be nice to afford a school like Harvard but this is not reality for 99% of the population. I cant wait till America looses its old enligh ties and starts to become the America everyone thinks we live in.
There is nothing like a bunch of law students or lawyers debating over pointless shit. Everyone seems to be so bitter about Cooley. If you don’t like the school then don’t send your kids there. Instead, you rather sit on this pathetic website and defame an institution that you feel is inadequate in comparison to whatever school you may have attended. Personally I can find better things to do with my time. I suggest that every do the same.
There is nothing like a bunch of law students or lawyers debating over pointless shit. Everyone seems to be so bitter about Cooley. If you don’t like the school then don’t send your kids there. Instead, you rather sit on this pathetic website and defame an institution that you feel is inadequate in comparison to whatever school you may have attended. Personally I can find better things to do with my time. I suggest that everyone do the same.
I can find more productive things to do with my time as well. But pissing you guys off gives me a good laugh.
I know many Cooley grads who are embarrassed by this independent ranking system. I also think that the US News ranking system is highly bogus as well. And, that Cooley is properly ranked not at the bottom b quartile or quintile, but probably in the 3rd tier if objectively analyzed.
The Founder of Cooley made a decision to have an open admissions policy. With that comes the loss of the prestige factor that comes from selectivity and also the probability that you will have low GPA and LSAT entrance averages. But, Cooley is being unfairly m,aligned because of this ranking system it is pushing, and is being very much underrated as a result. But, again, they are somewhat inviting this attack in the first place.
It would have been better to simply state that they disagree with the US News rankings, and explain why they think their open admissions policies are better. But, inherent in the poster’s attack on Cooley is the assumption that selectivity means the school is better. Well, no. That’s back-asswards.
WHY DO YOU CARE ABOUT COOLEY SO MUCH? People who attack Cooley are jealous. I went to Cooley practically free. Yes, I had other options and could have went to a higher tier school. However, Cooley gives an incentive for students with higher LSAT and undergrad GPA’s, and the higher scores you have the more scholarship money you get. So yes, one can get a law school degree almost free from Cooley if they are smart enough to do it. I graduated with honors in 2 years because they offer an accelerated schedule option. I interviewed for an associate position in NY along with several other applicants who went to a higher tier school. Guess what! I got the job. In fact, I know a handful of grads from tier I schools who are still unemployed and another handful who haven’t passed the bar. There are hundreds, if not thousands of Cooley grads making six figures (+) right now, including myself. Get a life and stop worrying about Cooley law school. If you honestly think LSAT scores and undergrad GPA and strict admissions policy are indicative of your success as an attorney, you are WRONG! YOU and your capabilities matter, not what it says on your law degree hanging in your office. Just because someone went to Harvard or Yale does not mean they are guaranteed success. Do you think you walk into a court room and the judge or jury says “where did you go to school?” “OK, you win because you went to a better school.” Why do you even sit there and take time out of your day to write an entire article downing Cooley? What the hell is that going to do to further yourself? Once again, WHY DO YOU EVEN CARE? Live your life, go to the school you wish to go to, study, take the bar, start practicing law. Prove yourself in the legal profession and stop worrying about what Cooley law school does.
OK, maybe I shouldn’t have used the word “jealous.” But I am so sick of reading different blogs and comments of people hating on Cooley. I don’t get it. If you think Cooley doesn’t provide a quality education and lets stupid people get a law degree, then let that pan out in the profession when they start practicing law. No matter what school you go to, in the profession, the best of the best will prosper and rise to the top. All people like you who bitch about Cooley do is suggest that you are insecure about yourself and perhaps maybe feel threatened by Cooley law grads. If you are so certain that we are so terrible and unworthy, then why do you even worry about it. If that was the case, wouldn’t we all be unemployed. I just don’t understand why so many people from other schools go on and on and on about how shitty Cooley is. I externed at a firm in NY, the managing partner went to Princeton, he straight up said to me, “I don’t care what your law degree says.. if you can win cases for me I will hire you… I have colleagues who I graduated with from Princeton who I wouldn’t hire in a heartbeat.”
Correction: Princeton undergrad, American Law school . You get my drift.
I’m confused; you imply the author should have better things to do with his time, yet you’re the one who has read so many blogs bashing Cooley that you are “so sick” of it? Why do you keep reading the blogs then, let alone post to them?
Didn’t Eleanor Roosevelt says something like, “nobody can make you feel inferior without your consent?”
You’re right. That was very hypocritical of me. I’ve stumbled across blogs here and there over the years (not purposefully). That was the first time I ever commented, I suppose I needed a good vent. Thanks.
LOL. Love the response.
I should say, I love Annoyed at Annoyed Cooley Grad’s response.
I love the note that was attached: “Cooley people, please stop filling up the comment section with your inane and unverified personal stories. 6/30/2011″. It is a bit one-sided to believe that any meaningful debate about the quality of a law school should be limited to those that have never attended the school in question. I did attend Cooley, and I can honestly say that I am glad that I did. I could have gone to a so-called “better” school, but I chose a school that is committed to professional responsibility and teaching practical skills. I learned the value of my education when I completed my internship. Not only was I “besting” my opponents that had attended more prestegious schools, but I was also finding that more and more firms were hiring Cooley students because of their work ethic. This experience of course does not make Cooley the “best” school out there, but at the end of the day, I got the education that I was looking for in order to proceed down the career path that I wanted. At the end of the day the “Cooley haters” are not going to care about any of the comments that Cooley students leave because they are too wrapped up in their position. And that is fine, to each their own. However, for those people out there that are considering a school, if Cooley is on your list, spend some time talking to the students and the professors to decide if it is right fit for you. If you are going to base your decision on a blog and comments that are written by persons who haven’t even attended the school, you probably should not be headed into a field that requires an immense amount of research.
But isn’t the point of the blog that potential students don’t need to do research? Cooley’s done it for them with its ranking system, which scientifically proves Cooley is the best law school ever. If you can’t trust an institution that prides itself of knowledge, skills, and ethics–whom can you trust?
I don’t believe that is the point at all. And, Cooley has not proven that it is the “best law school ever.” It certainly did not rank itself #1. Don’t misunderstand what I am saying. I am not saying that Cooley’s rankings are the better ranking system or that it does or does not mislead students. Frankly, every ranking system that I have looked at has major flaws. If people are going to choose a law school based entirely on these various published rankings, I certainly don’t want to hire that person as an attorney. I want the person who takes the time to research the issues that are important for them, like bar passage rates, subjects offered, quality of the professors, etc. The simple point that I am making is that if a person is going to post a blog and welcome discussion on a topic about the quality of a law school, to ask students that have actually attended the school not to comment automatically makes the debate pointless.
1. The “best law school ever comment” is hyperbole; however, I don’t think many people would take Cooley’s rankings less seriously if it had marketed itself as such. I understand it can be hard to convey tone to anonymous strangers on the internet, even with ridiculous assertions like “scientifically proves.”
2. I believe you are mischaracterizing the author’s request. From what I recall, he asked Cooley grads/students to post statistical information rather than personal anecdotes–because it’s the better evidence. Of course, that may have been in posts you didn’t read. But even the comment you quote doesn’t state Cooley people should not comment at all: expressio unius est exclusio alterius…
At any rate, are the Cooley people filling up the comment section with their personal anecdotes doing so because they think they will actually persuade people who readily acknowledge that “some” people who went to Cooley have had “successful” legal careers but they are the exception rather than the rule? If so, how many personal anecdotes from a school with roughly 3K? students at time do you think it will take to convert the exception to the rule?
And to be clear, I consider that to be a rhetorical question. I’m not looking for a response, let alone a number.
Truthiness,
When any individuals responded on this blog with statistics in Cooley’s favor as per Mr. Kraemer’s request (see Cooley Grad’s responses regarding Cooley’s performance in numerous competitions) the author then denigrated the particular competition or dismissed the info as not true or insignificant. For example, when a recent poster stated that Cooley had taken first place in the National Client Counseling Competition (an indication of the emphasis on and quality of Cooley’s Alternative Dispute Resolution Program), the author of the blog immediately dismissed the competition as being useless and unimportant. (Yeah sure, client control and relations are completely unimportant in the daily work of an attorney in the real world. Only an inexperienced law student would say that!) Perhaps Mr. Kraemer’s school could do a better job of informing him of the common competitions that law students participate in if he’s unaware of the Client Counseling Competition.
If bar passage rates for Cooley were reported and were high, they were dismissed as being too recent to be determinative. Numerous statistics on positive competition results given over several years were always dismissed by the blog author for some reason or another. Yet, the author himself never offered up any evidence as to how the results of other schools showed that those students performed better than Cooley students. Instead, he put the burden on the Cooley supporters to provide the statistics and when they did, it was always mocked – yes MOCKED and dismissed as being an anomaly or untrue or not representative or unimportant or whatever he determined it to be to support his position. Even in my case, when I posted a 100% truthful posting, my position was dismissed as an ‘unsubstantiated story of success’ that if true, had to be an anomaly. Why? Because the author can’t accept that Cooley can be a success in any way. The evidence has to correspond to his view that Cooley can only produce mediocrity and all Cooley students and grads must be idiots who had poor undergrad grades and LSAT scores. This was especially insulting to me, as an individual who speaks four languages, who worked overseas for the American Consulate before attending Cooley, who graduated cum laude (top 5%) from my undergrad institution, who externed for a federal judge, and along with being a Cooley Honors Scholar, received a generous scholarship to attend the school and found its rigorous program to be quite challenging. (And no, I wasn’t an anomaly – I found myself in good company while at Cooley, as there wasn’t a day that passed where I didn’t get to speak one of my foreign languages if I wanted to, as almost every individual I knew who attended Cooley spoke 2 to 3 languages.)
I don’t think you will find one Cooley grad or student who agrees with Cooley’s ludicrous self-rankings. The reason why there are no posts defending the idiotic raking system is because most posters would agree with the author’s assertions on this subject. I haven’t seen a statement otherwise. However, contrary to the author’s assertions, that’s not what this conversation is about. His numerous insults (my favorite: “you Cooley people are incapable of intelligent discussion”) to his fellow law practictioners who attended and graduated from Cooley is what people are fighting about. Mr. Kraemer has a lot to learn about proper legal decorum and successfully arguing one’s point. You do not win cases, Mr. Kraemer, through insults. Even in the most heated debates in the courtroom, there is a certain respect given a fellow law practictioner due to the respect we all share for the profession. You lack that. It’s a respect you failed to display in this blog and you are none the better for it.
Furthermore, when dealing with opposing counsel’s arguments, one should actually deal with the actual argument. Failing to do so and instead dismissing it as an anomaly or unsubstantiated or unimportant does NOT win you points with judges or juries, because you failed to deal with the issue. Just because every single past and present Cooley student didn’t answer this blog with their success story doesn’t mean that the success stories of those that did respond on this blog are anomalies. I noticed that one hundred people didn’t post success stories about Penn State – does that mean that if I read five success stories from five graduates from Penn that I am to assume they are anomalies because all 3,000 students didn’t post their success stories? Seriously?
Why don’t you all just take it at face value? The Cooley ratings suck and are ludicrous. Nevertheless, that’s an entirely different issue from the quality and success of the students that graduate from that school. However, THAT IS WHAT HAS BEEN ATTACKED ON THIS BLOG. As a Cooley grad who knows far more about the quality and success of Cooley grads than Mr. Kraemer does simply by virtue of the fact that I (and not Mr. Kraemer) attended the school, I would suggest that it is Mr. Kraemer’s opinions on the subject that are unsubstantiated. If one wants an accurate view of the school and the students that attend, one should pay attention to what THEY have posted about their school (yes, that includes their success stories) since they are in the best position to evaluate it. Furthermore, I’m not sure why certain people are so dismissive of personal ancedotes. Statistics, after all, are derived from and are simply a conglomeration of personal ancedotes. Isn’t it up to the ‘fact-finder’ (in this case, the blog reader) and not Mr. Kraemer to determine how many personal ancedotes are indicative of a reliable statistic or trend?
With lots of love, :)
- Michelle Gentry
(thought I’d make it easy on you this time, Mr. Kraemer, and not force you to look up my e-mail address in order to ‘out me’ – after all, I wouldn’t want you to think you are TOO clever! ;)
I have shown at length that Cooley’s statistics are cherry picked to produce illusory numbers – i.e. selective bar exams or giving same weight to books in the library as an undergrad GPA. I explained my reliance upon objective statistics rather than un-vetted personal stories and other outliers. Personal anecdotes are grossly immaterial, unverified, and unhelpful to the majority of students. Cooley by the real numbers shows a horribly deceptive recruitment practice.
The persuasive argument set fourth is based on objective evidence and not some cherry picked or irrelevant fact. Michelle, just because you keep sounding the alarm about the importance of an inconsequential competition or the validity of a personal anecdote – ad nauseum nonetheless – to me does not signal you won an argument but rather stuck fingers in your ears and said “nah nah nah I can’t hear you”.
Dude, just stop replying to these people. Its hopeless. Its like taking to a brick wall, only more annoying since these “bricks” talk back.
“National Client Counseling Competition.”
Ok, I’m sure this is a rigourous competition, but that’s like winning the Division III national football title – ok, you did win, but who else was playing? Are you sure you weren’t playing against scrubs because the quality students from those schools were busy with Law Review? I know when I was busy cite-checking I wasn’t looking to pad my resume with the National Client Counseling Competition.
National Client Counseling Competition????? I know that’s a real thing, but really????
“I noticed that one hundred people didn’t post success stories about Penn State – does that mean that if I read five success stories from five graduates from Penn that I am to assume they are anomalies because all 3,000 students didn’t post their success stories? Seriously?”
Yes. Not only is the sample size far too small, but people with “success” stories tend to over-report versus those who are not “successful.” That is how logic works. However, in the same breath I dismiss anecdotes, I do have one to offer – Cooley has an embarassing reputation in the Michigan legal community. We just know not to say it out loud, because Cooley grads are so numerous they could be anywhere.
And juries do consider the validity of “statistics,” and they do understand the difference between valid statistical data versus individual anecdotes. If the “issue” is the validity of statistical data – which it IS here – then it is entirely valid to point out that one self-reported success story does not make a dent in the hard data.
But as I said below, there is something to be said regarding the Cooley reputation in the Michigan legal market. No one will do a survey on this topic – because no one knows if they lawyer they are talking to is a Cooley grad – but why don’t major law firms in Detroit even bother to interview the top Cooley grads? That is a telling fact as well.
“received a generous scholarship to attend the school and found its rigorous program to be quite challenging.”
A 153 LSAT gets an automatic 50% scholarship!
A 149 LSAT gets an automatic 25% scholarship!
“Isn’t it up to the ‘fact-finder’ (in this case, the blog reader) and not Mr. Kraemer to determine how many personal ancedotes are indicative of a reliable statistic or trend?”
NO!!!! MARGINS OF ERROR ARE HARD SCIENCE! THERE IS A REASON POLLS PUBLISH THAT NUMBER! IT IS SPECIFICALLY BECAUSE PERSONAL ANECDOTES IN ISOLATION ARE STATISTICALLY WORTHLESS!!!
I’m not running the numbers here, but if this forum were a survey, and one was trying to gauge how many Cooley students were “successful” based only on the responses here, the margin of error would be something like 80%!
I’m sorry but this entire web page disgusts me. If you do not attend Cooley Law school, why are you so concerned about the well-being of its students? I believe that the only reason for attacking Cooley would be to justify your 50,000 $+ tuition at whatever “US News” ranked Law School. In reality, when and if you finally pass the bar exam, you will be in the SAME EXACT position as a Cooley Law grad, except in a crapload of debt.
I am disgusted by the fact that your law school is trying to attract naive students using an arbitrary ranking system. Explain how Cooley is ranked higher than Yale (or Stanford or Berkeley for that matter). The author is concerned with the questionable recruiting tactics of your institution. I on the other hand do not give a crap about law school, hell I’ve never wanted to be a lawyer. I just stumbled onto this site, saw this page and the flawed arguments that some Cooley grads (or grad, some of the different grads might actually be the same person, some of the different posters have very similar writing styles) made and I have to say just stop it. No top tier law grad will take you ranking seriously, neither will most employers. Your arguments have, in most cases, been utterly destroyed. The only people being tricked by your school’s ranking system are the new batch of students who will one day be your fellow alumni.
To clarify myself. I do agree that the US World New Report’s ranking system can be considered arbitrary. However, the US World New Report is not ranking itself. Its bias in the rankings is not as self serving as the bias in your school’s rankings.
Cooley has an absolutely piss poor reputation in the legal community in its very own home state. It is absolutely laughable for you to say “In reality, when and if you finally pass the bar exam, you will be in the SAME EXACT position as a Cooley Law grad, except in a crapload of debt.” Exact same? That’s beautiful.
What large Michigan firms come to Cooley for OCI? Miller Canfield? Dickinson Wright? Butzel Long? Bodman? Honigman? Clark Hill? Varnum? Foster Swift? NOPE.
None do. A large Detroit based law firm will have nothing to do with a Cooley grad (until that grad has a large book of business in 10 years – then welcome aboard!). Not to mention, facing Cooley grads in a lawsuit is terrible, because you and the Judge still have to go through the motions of addressing their incompetent and innane legal arguments and barely literate writing. Although, I’d rather face a Cooley grad than anyone else, so there’s that.
Large law firms like to make money. Cooley grads do not create money. I mean this – if Cooley is all you can get into, the Law is not the profession for you. Go ahead, create a mythos surrounding the oppression of the elites. That doesn’t change the fact that anyone who knows anything about the law knows the “value” of a Cooley J.D…….
Cooley does everything they can to keep their students from transferring. I applied to transfer to a different school in another state because of the financil need to finish up in the same state where my husband is. I ordered a letter of good standing, paid for it online, and paid for overnight service so that the letter would meet a deadline at the school I was trying to transfer to. I got a confirmation e-mail stating that the transcript would be sent overnight. Two days later, which happened to be two days from the deadline, I got an e-mail saying that they were not going to send my letter overnight as agreed and paid for. “We’re sorry. Due to an administrative hold (non-submission of Honor Code and/or Policy Procedure Forms) on your student account we were unable to fulfill your request. The request will not be processed until the administrative hold has been lifted.”
I called Cooley and was promised a letter would indeed be processed. The lady, Robin, was very reassuring. She looked online at my accounts for several minutes and ensured me that everything was okay. She never gave an answer for WHY I got that e-mail. The beginning of the ordeal….
Some time later that day, I got an e-mail saying that the letter would not be processed.
I e-mailed Robin back immediately, and called. She she told me that because I voided a class in the past, the old grade would have to be reinstated and the new GPA calculated. She informed me that if it fell below a certain GPA, she wouldn’t be able to send the letter. I could never get her to tell me why the grade, which would appear as a V on my transcript was suddenly going onto my transcript now that they were worried I was transferring. It was like their way of saying, “Hey Wife, if you’re leven thinking of leaving me, Wife, I am going to call ADT and turn the security alarm service off.” Why would the old grade have to be reinstated and what did that have to do with my GPA? Well, I will tell you. This was nothing more than a big fat bully picking on a quiet little girl on the playground. The old grade most definately does not have to be reinstated, and my GPA most definately would not need to be recalculated because I used my Void, and the purpose of the Void to put on record that the student will re-take the course. So why in the world was Robin insisting that the grade must be put on? The only logical conclusion is that I was now seeking to transfer and she was just following procedure (as she admits). But, what is this procedure and why is it now suddenly in place now that I am interested in transferring? Simple. Because I am transferring, this new procedure whereby which students are told that if they EVEN THINK ABOUT LEAVING, Cooley will try to hurt them by changing the agreement. It’s true because Cooley sure wasn’t trying to change the agreement while I was there giving them $30,000 in the first year. Robin, who clearly is not an attorney, and is about as articulate as my ten year old niece while arguing with me, then went on to say that I needed to make a decision if I wanted to stay at Cooley or not. I asked her why it had to be reinstated. “So if I come back to law school at Cooley in the fall, I would have used up my void and then still have a D on my transcript? That doesn’t make any sense. In the past, a letter of good standing has been provided on several occasions, and the D was not been put back on the transcript. There must be some misunderstanding. Then I informed her that it didn’t matter if she factored the void in or not when evaluating my grades to determine if the letter could be sent. Why? Because I had a GPA above a 2.0. She then lied about my GPA even though I was simultaneously looking at a copy of it online. She told me that Sherida Wysocki was in a meeting and she was going to lunch. It was way past lunchtime. So, 1 Point Cooley, 0 Points Me. She shut me down. She waited to respond to me until the UPS pick-up time passed, yet again.
When I called her about an hour after her “lunch,” I called her out on this pack of lies and games. She told me that her boss, Wysocki, would tell me the same thing. She would tell me, “Oh, no we’re not playing these games.” What games? Ohhhhh, you mean the game where I ask for a letter of good standing to transfer, and you threaten to enact a previously unpublished and unheard new policy that you will seek up to mess with my GPA, but if I stay, you won’t? You’re telling me that you are going to take away my void if I seek this letter of good standing, and if I come back, I will no longer have the option to re-take the class for a better grade. Looks like YOU are the one playing the games. Then, Robin tells me that I better decide if I am going to withdrawl or not. Let’s face it. This is getting ridiculous. Why do I need to decide if I am going to withdrawl of not? How can I know until I do or don’t get accepted at another law school? And why is Cooley’s random new unheard of policy being inflicted upon me in order to preclude me from EVEN TRYING to transfer. How can I know if I want to withdrawl until the prospective law school is given an opportunity to look at my current GPA? And why does the definition of my CURRENT GPA KEEP CHANGING depending on whether or not I plan on TRYING to transfer. I must add that Robin told me to just call the school I was wanting to transfer to and to ask them if they accepted people with my GPA. I told her that’s not the policy for applying to law schools, and that she ought to know that. The Dean of the school I want to apply to was very impressed when she met me, looked at my resume, and realized how articulate I am and how successful I have been in business. I told the Dean what my GPA was, and she said it was fine and that she strongly encouraged me to apply. So I have Robin telling me absolutely that she has never seen a student with my GPA transfer to that school, and I am here telling her that she needs to just simply do her job and process the letter of good standing order so that that school has an opportunity to do their job and process all of the documents they require to have on file before making a decision. Apparently, that’s just simply not all Robin’s job entails. Threaten, Lie, Discourage, Lie, Change your story…possibly process student request but probably wait until you know the student has missed her deadline to do your job.
Finally, I stop her and say, “Hey, wasn’t the original e-mail from you stating that you couldn’t process the request because you needed me to sign some honor code or procedure form?” She replies by sending me a form in e-mail. Guess what it was? An HONOR CODE FORM FOR 1L’S to sign at ORIENTATION. Are you kidding? All this school does it try to scare you, lie, threaten you…they give so many excuses and tell so many lies, that sooner or later, they hope the student is confused and scared to leave.
Finally, I am told that if I withdrawl, I will LOSE ALL OF THE CREDITS I HAVE EARNED. In other words, if I ever want to come back–despite whether or not I even transfer to another school, I will not only have to beg for permission through a formal process, but I will also have to start completely over. NO CREDIBLE SCHOOL OR ETHICAL SCHOOL PROMISES TO TAKE AWAY SOMEONES GRADES…WIPE THEIR TRANSCRIPT CLEAN…IF THEY WITHDRAWL. AND, I HAVEN’T SEEN THIS IN THEIR POLICY MANUAL. But, also in their policy manual is a section which states that they can change rules and don’t even have to tell us about them or publish them…we just have to follow them. Hummmm….can you say Psycho? I will have to start over and lose the $30,000 and the money I spent on living expenses, moving up to Cooley, books, etc. if I try to wait out this next semester to hear if I will be able to transfer or not. And, in the process, I have to agree to them lowering my GPA unfairly once I ask for the letter. But, ethical as they are (SARCASM), they say they will not lower my GPA if I don’t try to transfer, and in fact, I can still re-take the course. All I have to do is decide whether or not I am going to withdrawal.
Circus Freaks. Seriously. So sue people for telling the truth about you? And really, when this many people who have dealt with you personally and are now DISSATISFIED CUSTOMERS–emphasis on the word CUSTOMERS–have such similar things to say about you, Cooley, doesn’t it follow that it must be true.
Thank you! I hope everything works out for you!
I am no legal scholar nor have I even thought about being a lawyer. I am only a mathematics major (Logic and Set Theory concentration) at a top ranked university. As a student of mathematics I am a slave to logic and proper argument. Therefore, I feel like I can say, from the viewpoint of an outside observer, that those who have defend the Cooley ranking system are unable to formulate or understand a proper argument. Your axioms are flawed at best. I do not doubt that Cooley does produce many successful lawyers. But, the law of large numbers will almost always come back and haunt those who do not graduate at the top of their class. The average salaries and the unemployment rate at Cooley are not weighed properly by this ranking. To give every statistical category near equal weight and to leave out other important ones is asinine.
The paid Cooley posters are unreal. You can actually see which ones are plants. There are literally people who work for Cooley in the marketing department tasked with googling Cooley and planting “positive” comments whenever an open forum dogging on Cooley opens up. This is a very common practice in for profit corporations, which is, ultimately, what Cooley is.
I gain an odd joy, as a person in the legal profession in Michigan, in watching Cooley so vigorously police the internet, posting their press releases about the 5 students that year who will actually make more than $60,000 a year. Bravo, I sort of respect the institutional defensiveness that Cooley exhibits with its “rankings” and “law suits against the internet.”
Yeah, google that last one…..
Cooley Sued For Allegedly Fraudulent Employment Stats.
http://michiganlawyerblog.wordpress.com/2011/08/10/cooley-suit-alleges-fraudulent-graduate-job-placement-stats/
Is there any end to the lack of honor there?
I wonder if this very successful blog post being on the top couple results on Google for “Thomas Cooley Law School” had any impact on defrauded students thinking of suing. I hope so.
I graduated from TMC more than 20 years ago. Admittedly, it was not my first choice but my preferred schools quibbled over some minor problems with, ahem, GPAs and such. Since then I’ve had, and continue to have, a satisfying legal career, both professionally and financially. I used to worry about how my alma mater ranked with others but after practicing with lawyers from top schools a few years I realized we used the same textbooks, studied the same cases and litigate the same issues. My Cooley J.D. works just as well as my good friend’s does from Vanderbilt.
I think the rankings are generally a crock.
Michigan Legal Employer failed to mention that New York Law School was also recently sued for fraud, negligent misrepresentation, and deceptive business practices. http://abovethelaw.com/2011/08/cooley-law-gets-served-some-of-its-own-medicine-nyls-is-tardy-to-the-party/#more-88449
If someone is going to present evidence that they feel singles out the school–and puts a nail into Cooley’s coffin–they should at least also point out that it’s going on everywhere. Otherwise, they aren’t presenting a fair argument.
An April 2011 article from the The New Republic follows; it is titled ” Served: How Law Schools Completely Misrepresent Their Job Numbers.” The article discusses “top law schools” that are intentionally misrepresenting their employment stats.
http://www.tnr.com/article/87251/law-school-employment-harvard-yale-georgetown
Coming onto this thread and pointing out that a lawsuit has been filed against Cooley for doing what, it appears, every other law school in the country does–and then asking whether there is “any end to the lack of honor”–makes one look more like you have an axe to grind and much less like you have any viable arguments.
Cooley is now suing bloggers who criticize the school, according to recent news reports. If I were you, Mr. Kraemer, I’d be packin’–and I don’t mean a suitcase. lol.
God Bless Kurzon Strauss!
“…[A] lawsuit has been filed against Cooley for doing what, it appears, every other law school in the country does–and then asking whether there is “any end to the lack of honor”–makes one look more like you have an axe to grind and much less like you have any viable arguments.”
Your statement reads more like an admission of guilt than an attempt to mitigate Cooley’s damages (which is what I imagine you were attempting to do).I understand that you may have an emotional (benefit of the doubt) and/or financial (more likely) just because “everyone’s doing it” does not make the act legal nor does it excuse liability. At some point organizations are going to have to take responsibility for their wrongdoing and the toxic cultures they create. In my PERSONAL OPINION Cooley has a serious morale problem and an inferiority complex.
Every corporation, organization, group, people etc. will at some point in their lives and or careers they will encounter criticism in some form or fashion; criticism is a part of life. The majority of people, organizations, groups etc try to give the appearance of being interested in improvement, or at least, reasonable, if nothing more than for public appearances sake.
Cooley should have paid attention to how the banks’ have responded to the public criticism over their practices and recession proof executive salary packages (it’s a different story behind closed doors). Cooley’s response to criticism was like Brian Moynihan saying to homeowners “Yeah I took your house w/o having papers for it…and what? Keep talking ish….we’ll be back for your furniture, clothes, and the dog!….Bitch we B of A…who are you?”
Anyone who’s encountered a Cooley student can attest to ‘their rules and their game’. So, Cooley should not get mad when people play their game using the rules they created.
Cooley is going to be rated much higher once the
ABA capitulates and starts accrediting (?) on-line law schools.
It was a total ripoff!!!,
I don’t know what to think. I know that I am completely opposed to this ridiculous notion that everyone deserves a chance (at life and happiness they do) but not at professional school that has historically been for the very best and brightest. No Cooley, everyone does not deserve a chance to be in a lawyer, a physician, a scientist, a college professor. They either have the grades and test scores or they don’t. This is not a truck driving academy we are speaking of here. Nice try though. Sell it to someone else. I’m not buying it!
There has been a GROSS OVERSUPPLY OF LAWYERS FOR DECADES. Cooley knows this and is responding by opening up more and more chains (what else do you call them) of branch locations. This can only further frustrate unemployed and underemployed lawyers. Now in Florida? Come on! What’s next – Indiana Tech starting a law school? Well, yes! You read that correctly.
WHAT ONE SHOULD NOT DO IS MAKE ANECDOTAL REFERENCES EITHER WAY ABOUT WINNING THIS OR LOSING THAT COMPETITION AS SOME SORT OF PROOF ABOUT COOLEY. LIKE THE ANECDOTE THAT COOLEY STUDENTS HAPPEN TO WIN A MOOT COURT COMPETITION AT SOME POINT(S) IN TIME. ANECDOTES ARE NOT PROOF! PURE LAW OF CHANCE MEANS THAT AT SOME POINT NEARLY EVERYONE WILL EVENTUALLY WIN SOMETHING. THAT’S NOT EVIDENCE. IF THAT’S ALL COOLEY HAS THEN I WOULD BE CONCERNED ABOUT THE $250,000,000.00 LAWSUIT AGAINST IT CLAIMING THAT COOLEY COMMITTED FRAUD. I WOULD ALSO BE CONCERNED IF I AM ANOTHER LAW SCHOOL SIMILARLY SITUATED TO COOLEY!!!!
Work hard, do your best, ignore reality, bury your head in the sand, don’t listen to the frustration in the voices of those who care about the legal profession and don’t want open admission law school (or whatever Cooley tries to call it). Well that’s not smart! If I swing a tree with a hammer as hard as I can for hours on end that tree is not coming down no matter what I do (except in those rare chance situations). Work hard, do your best is no answer to the real problem of over 1,000,000 lawyers. Keep rationalizing if it makes you happy but that tree is not going anywhere anytime soon.
HEY, WHILE RATIONALIZING, IT JUST CAME TO ME – AN OPEN ADMISSION MEDICAL SCHOOL. How about: COOLEY MEDICAL SCHOOL? Because everybody deserves a chance to be a doctor… Who wants to be the first patient? How about Dean Don LeDuc for brain surgery (joking…so don’t sue me).
Cooley wrote its own ranking book. You read that correctly. Surprise, surprise it ranks itself very high. Here is just one of the exalted and rigorous criteria that it puts itself through: THE NUMBER OF SEATS IN A LIBRARY. Yes, again, you read that correctly – so stop laughing. Come on, stop laughing. Obviously some people fall for this nonsense.
I HAVE IT: “THE PONTIAC SILVERDOME LAW SCHOOL”: 80,311 SEATS! That would make for one great law school. Sorry, Cooley, you just got out-ranked by your own lofty criteria.
Of course, Don LeDuc gave an interview trying to rationalize opening a 12th law school in Florida (again, you read that correctly) by complaining about the Michigan economy (in addition trying to explain how Tampa is “underserved” by lawyers (you keep reading this correctly). He is such a great ambassador for Michigan. Thanks Don Le Duc. Mr. LeDuc’s alma mater: Wayne State Law School is also not a top 100 law school. Anyone surprised? Of course, everyone needs a chance to be a lawyer…we have so few of them that we can’t be picky!
NOTICE THAT I AM VERY CAREFUL HERE NOT TO SAY ANYTHING UNTRUE OR EVEN EXAGGERATED – JUST TRUTHFUL HUMOR. I DON’T WANT COOLEY SUING ME TOO. SO, I WILL BE VERY CAREFUL BUT I WILL NOT PRETEND THAT COOLEY IS GOOD FOR THE PROFESSION. NOT EVEN CLOSE!
Unless a person posting a comment is a current Cooley student or a graduate, there should not be a comment made about the quality of education that is being delivered at the school. I am currently completing my final year of school and feel that I have been provided the adequate skills to both pass the bar (Indiana) and be a competent and successful attorney in whatever field I pursue. As most people are unaware, Cooley requires its full-time professors to have practiced a certain number of years before allowing he or she to teach law. After speaking with some of my undergraduate colleagues, I know that this is not a requisite of other highly regarded institutions in Indiana. As a student, I am constantly being drilled about how the area of law that I am learning applies to a particular real-life situation. Further, Cooley professors do not let students sit-back and enjoy a lecture in that the Socratic method of teaching is utilized at all levels of our legal education.
Also, Cooley’s curriculum requirements surpasses that of my undergraduate colleagues at other highly regarded institutions. Cooley students are required to complete courses that are offered merely as electives at other schools including Secured Transactions, Federal Administrative Law, Sales, Taxation, and Business Organizations. The reason why these courses are required is because Cooley has recognized that these areas of laws are often topics of bar examinations. Not only that, but Cooley also recognizes that by requiring its students to successfully complete these courses, the students will be more well-rounded attorneys when they begin to practice.
I find it rather humorous that all of you people who are unfamiliar with the Cooley curriculum are so quick to strike-down Cooley as an insult to the legal community when you probably don’t know a single Cooley graduate. As a matter of fact, I personally know of five recent graduates who have passed the bar on their first attempt and are all currently employed, one of which just received his L.L.M. in Taxation from the University of Florida (yes, the first or second rated tax L.L.M. program).
As far as rankings to, they are ridiculous and absolutely worthless. I graduated from a tiny liberal arts school that constantly “ranks” in the top-50 and no one has even heard of it. GET OVER IT! You all think that Cooley students don’t know that Cooley’s ranking system is garbage…WELL WE DO! However, it does not matter because Cooley is constantly producing successful attorneys. Ask yourself, if Cooley was sooooo terrible, how is it that there are elected judges currently ruling in Michigan and other states that came from Cooley?
I hope this little post has shed some light on your hatred towards Cooley. I know there is going to be some little nerd who is going to have some ridiculous response to my comment, and that is okay. It must be known that Cooley is not a garbage law school and is performing a great service to the legal community … outside of its ranking system.
Point 1:
“Unless a person posting a comment is a current Cooley student or a graduate, there should not be a comment made about the quality of education that is being delivered at the school.”
So I guess it’s OK to exclude former students who transferred because they were unhappy with the quality of their education? Or former students who failed out? I guess in your opinion if they weren’t competent enough to pass the courses, they aren’t competent to evaluate the quality of the education they received…
Point 2:
“I am currently completing my final year of school and feel that I have been provided the adequate skills to both pass the bar (Indiana) and be a competent and successful attorney in whatever field I pursue.”
Wunderbar! Perhaps people already practicing in the profession may be in a better position to evaluate how helpful their legal education was to preparing them for actual practice. I’ll give more weight to your opinion at that point in time.
Point 3:
“Also, Cooley’s curriculum requirements surpasses that of my undergraduate colleagues at other highly regarded institutions. Cooley students are required to complete courses that are offered merely as electives at other schools including Secured Transactions, Federal Administrative Law, Sales, Taxation, and Business Organizations. The reason why these courses are required is because Cooley has recognized that these areas of laws are often topics of bar examinations. Not only that, but Cooley also recognizes that by requiring its students to successfully complete these courses, the students will be more well-rounded attorneys when they begin to practice.”
Other schools may trust that their students are competent enough to pass the bar exam without requiring every subject that is tested by taking in school, and these schools may believe that students are in the best position to know what courses will help them in their future career. I never took Secured Transactions (no interest in it), but I have found my course in Statutory Interpretation to have been extremely helpful. Interestingly, given the amount of statutory law out there, Cooley doesn’t require its students to take a course dedicated to it. In short, what you see as a benefit (mandated classes), many people may see as a condescending, paternalistic burden.
Point 4:
“Ask yourself, if Cooley was sooooo terrible, how is it that there are elected judges currently ruling in Michigan and other states that came from Cooley?”
In Michigan, the public elects judges. Part of the reason the bar is self-regulating is that the public doesn’t have the expertise to judge the competency of the legal profession. However, for whatever reason, in Michigan, the public elects judges. As in any public election, other factors are at play. I don’t think what law school you went to matters much to the public in Michigan, other than Cooley grads can play up the “common man” anti-elitist sentiment. In fact, I guarantee you that having gone to Harvard would work against you in my home county. The likely next judge in that county has been the prosecutor for several years. That more than anything thing else is likely to be the decisive factor in the next judicial election.
Welp, the “little nerd” has emerged (yes that’s you “Counterpoints”). Congratulations on taking that honor. The entire point of my post was to give people unfamiliar with Cooley’s curriculum who are bashing the school an idea about the realities of the curriculum.
Comment to “Point 1″
Mr. Nitpicky, I was merely suggesting that people who have never been involved with the school should not be making such negative statements about the school when they do not know how the school functions. So I guess what I meant to say was “unless you have had any experience with Cooley, either being a current student, a graduate, or A TRANSFEREE, please refrain from making hurtful statement about Cooley.”
Comment to “Point 2″
Not really sure what you’re trying to prove there, but I’m guessing it was ingenious in your clever little mind.
Comment to “Point 3″
A “condescending, paternalistic burden,” what?? The sole reason that Secured or Taxation is required by Cooley is to give its students an education in those areas of law to make their lives less hellish during bar preparation. I’m proud that you took “Statutory Interpretation,” you should feel accomplished. However, who cares. I’m guessing that it is an elective course and you obviously feel that you made a great decision in taking that course to better prepare yourself for your career and that’s just dandy!
Comment to “Point 4″
I was merely (I love that word teehee) stating that Cooley graduates are obtaining high respected positions and are accomplishing quality tasks. That’s it!
Question for you, shouldn’t you have learned that you should not “guarantee” anything in throughout your law school education? You specifically stated that “In fact, I guarantee you that having gone to Harvard would work against you in my home county.” Shame, shame, you know your name. You can’t make a guarantee in the legal profession, everyone knows that, but I guess we can let that slide.
Lastly, of course a Harvard graduate is going to be preferred over a Cooley graduate, duh. I’m in no way attempting to compare Cooley to an Ivy-League type of school like Harvard. In fact, a Cooley grad would likely have little to no chance over a Michigan grad. However, I would be willing to bet (although illegal) that if an employer or a voting community did not know where a two competing people went to school that the Cooley grad would be competitive in that decision.
“Little nerd”? Is that how people at Cooley really talk? You’re in a detail-oriented profession (well, you’re trying to be). Heaven forbid you don’t nitpick a contract you’re writing!
PSA:
1) Law is a prestige whoring profession. Worst profession for prestige whoring there is. Pedigree follows you anywhere that is great to go to in the profession (I concede it will never matter as a solo/small law practitioner). As a result, if you pick a lower ranked school, you need to deal with the reputation you will automatically gain; a reputation that will follow you forever (despite what the above practioners claim). I know that sucks. Really does. Just how it is.
Your school will open or close doors for you in a real way. Fail to attend Yale, Harvard, Stanford? Academia is going to be considerably more difficult. Fail to attend anything in the top 10? Academia is effectively done for you. In this market, failing to attend a T-10 dramatically lowers your V100 job prospects. Hell, even Michigan was only placing about 1/3 of its students at $160k.
2) Graduates of top programs will quietly question the ability/intelligence of anyone attending a school outside of the top 10.
3) Graduates of top programs question will question the sanity of anyone of anyone attending a school outside of the top 50. You are willing to pay $200k to get a job earning $50k? Insanity. Utter insanity. Shit, become an electrician. Seriously, they make very good money. Nursing too. 36 hours a week and you can make $80k within a few years and live anywhere in the country.
4) Building on these points (and I mean this gently, really): pittsburg grad lambasting cooley? Where is pitt even ranked? I honestly have no idea but I promise you the tuition is absolutely not worth it there either.
5) Cooley rankings? Just, lol. I can’t believe the above dialogue has gone on for over a year. Probably not worth the effort, for the blog owner, but I suppose it is an amusing way to spend one’s time.
6) We entered the Dark Times back in 2009. Since then, this law school bet has become a very very bad one for almost everyone. DON’T GO TO LAW SCHOOL. I know many of you (and your families) are easily impressed with lawyers. Don’t be. 50,000 new ones are minted nationally every year. Only a tiny percentage will every make real money.
7) Legal work is also mostly shit.
Good luck to you all.
Cooley Grad has totes convinced me. I’ve been out of prison for the past three years and have been looking for a way to get back on track. I applied to Cooley and was accepted. I expect to be going there for my JD and hopefully my LLM in international law!
Michigan State’s bar passage rate in 2009 was 95% and was highly publicized as being better that UofM’s for the first time. That has not happened since, but the point is that you are flat out lying about bar passage rates.
Passage rate was for the Michigan Bar
@ Bob: Here are the February 2009 Michigan Bar stats by Michigan law schools:
http://barprofessors.blogspot.com/2009/06/michigan-bar-results-by-law-school-for.html
The data on the site shows Michigan State’s Michigan pass rate at 65% (4th place out of six law schools in the state). Cooley was 2nd place (75% pass rate) behind University of Michigan). You’ll also notice that Michigan State was ranked last in the state for first-time bar passage success. Cooley was ranked second, again, behind University of Michigan). A quick Google search wasn’t able to turn up the July 2009 results for Michigan’s pass rate by law school. Maybe someone else can spend more time to find and post it here.
I don’t think that the data is available yet on Michigan’s July 2011 exam, but here is the passage data for Michigan’s February 2011 Bar by Michigan law schools:
http://www.cooley.edu/overview/barresults.html
The data shows Michigan State’s first-time passage rate at 84.2% (3rd in the state) right behind Cooley’s first-time passage rate of 87.1%, which is just behind University of Michigan’s #1 first-time passage rate of 88.2%.
I’m of the impression that, by and large, law schools operate on the semester system. February bar exams are, again by and large, for individuals who have already failed the July bar exam.
However,Cooley beats to the tune of a trimester system; an overwhelming number of Cooley students (comprising nearly 2/3 of all February exam takers) sitting in February are sitting the exam for the first time. Comparatively, one can infer a substantial portion of the 17 UM and 19 MSU students sitting the exam are repeat takers.
If I were looking to skew the truth in the manner you are, I’d throw out equally misleading statistics for the February exam: only 2 UM students failed, only 3 MSU students failed, and 25 Cooley students failed.
July exams are a more accurate indicator; unfortunately, neither UM nor Cooley has released July 2011 passage rates, yet. MSU has, and their July passage rate of 87% is second within Michigan, second to an unnamed, presumably UM.
See, http://www.law.msu.edu/news/2011/releases/BarExam-July2011.html .
Edit: one can NOT infer the 17 UM and 19 MSU students were repeat takers; they were first time takers. However, there were surely underlying reasons why these 36 individuals waited, on average, 9+ months after graduation to sit the bar exam.
Regardless, the sample size -36 for UM and MSU, combined- is too small to really glean data of merit; if, e.g., ONLY SIX students of that sample size of 36 (ALL takers from UM and ALL takers from MSU) fail, the passage rate is an ‘abysmal’ 83%.
The sample you reference is too small for schools other than Cooley, and the circumstances too unique (it is illogical for traditional, semester-educated students to sit the February exam unless there were underlying circumstances necessitating they wait 9 months or more, and I really doubt all or anywhere near all were December graduates), to say you are doing anything but ‘comparing apples to oranges’ in data used to substantiate your position on the matter.
That said; I’m not knocking Cooley. I am, however, knocking the skewed statics Cooley utilizes to ‘look appealing,’ which bear strong similarity to those utilized by yourself. I stand behind my original position, above.
Interesting! I was accepted to several law schools (none of them being 1st tier) Cooley was one of those schools. Other schools accepting my application were Suffolk, New England, Widener, Barry, Thomas Jefferson. I chose Cooley for various reasons, Location close to Chicago (my home city), availability of a night program, part time program so I could have time with my kids, and so forth. So, maybe it is unfair to assume that all people who go to Cooley have no other choice.
Furthermore, it is the quality of the person combined with that person’s ability to use the knowledge obtained from the legal education just as much as it is the quality of the education alone.
I see many flaws in Cooley, I think the self ranking system they created for themselves is silly, I think that they lure people in that simple cannot and will not ever be lawyers (though certain people have only one chance and that chance is Cooley), I think potential students are mislead into believing they will make X amount of $ after graduating, and I think Cooley is overpriced. However, I believe that everyone deserves a chance to prove themselves and if the only place willing to give them that chance is Cooley we should not beat those people up for taking the only opportunity presented to follow their desired path. Cooley will never be Harvard, Yale, or even the U of I or MSU, but I have seen and argued against Harvard and Yale grads ( as well as grads from many other law schools) that are no better suited to have a bar card than many Cooley grads.
So, as to the website you posted, you expect us to believe that only 8 students sat for the Michigan bar in Feb from U of Michigan? One disgruntled blogger citing another is hardly trustworthy. If you want bar passage rates, go to an official source.
http://www.ilrg.com/rankings/law/index.php/1/desc/Bar
At this website, which is a widely trusted source for law school data (i.e. not the individual blog of some pissed off student or professor) UofM’s bar passage was 94.8% and Mich State’s was 93.7 in 2009.
;Detroit Free Press reports 2010 rate is 87 for Cooley and 84 for MSU. So…? Rank that my friend. Second only to U of M in Michigan.
Nice rant about rankings……….fuck rankings………..how did bill gates rank in college …….he dropped out. College is a money maker period………….why isn’t it free?
Well, friend, unfortunately the legal community is fixated on rankings. That includes all employers. So like it or not, your employment prospects are heavily influenced by your school name.
Sure, some small % always beats the odds, but is that really worth a $200k bet?
Derek,
Your comment about “employment prospects” being “heavily influenced” by the school name is not entirely correct. I will be done at Cooley in April and have already locked up a clerkship with a highly respected judge in Indiana. After a 15-minute phone conversation, and a look at my resume’, he offered me the clerkship without anything more. He also informed me that other applicants typically go through a pretty extensive interview process to be considered for the position. Reason behind the quick offer: Cooley grads have argued in front of him and he was very impressed with their abilities. So apparently Cooley is not doing too terrible of a job when a judge from another state (although a neighboring state) recognizes graduating attorneys’ abilities. I wish everyone would get over the “ranking” garbage and realize that all law schools that are ABA accredited are producing quality attorneys. I know some little nerd is going to say “what judge and what court,” and that I’m making this clerkship story up. But for purposes of anonymity, I will not name the judge or the court.
Well good for you. I am very (and honestly) glad that you are doing well.
That said, do I really need to list all of the employers that restrict hiring efforts based on school name? Do we really need to argue over whether a Yale grad has orders of magnitude more job opportunties vs a Cooley grad? Really? Because if so, you are being stubborn and silly.
The problem with using lsat scores and gpa to rank schools is that there are a lot of factors involved. Myself, I worked 40 hours a week and put in another 40 hours a week in a firehouse while completing my undergrad full time (and finishing in 4 years) and because of how busy I was my gpa fell (2.5) but after working for two years I scored a 159 on my first lsat attempt. Since I do not want to work in a big city firm and have a job lined up when I finish, Cooley and the 75% scholarship they are offering me fits my needs perfectly. I do agree though that without going to a top school i could never hope to get a job in a big firm.
Ed, your post is not responding to my point. I applaud your hard work (sounds like you had a tough undergraduate experience), but employers use your school name as the first screening device.
I am glad that you have a job lined up. One of my old friends attended Thomas Jefferson with a similar set up and that made sense for him (also, San Diego is a great place to live).
My point is that these low ranked schools (to include Pitt by the way!) are generally not worth the cost for most people. If all you need is a JD after your name, already have a good job lined up AND you can get a hefty scholarship, then maybe one of these places can make sense.
Just recognize that attending such a school is shutting off a bunch of avenues you would have otherwise had at a better school.
As for your scholarship: I hope that works out for you. I am worried that Cooley has a reputation for offering conditional scholarships and then grades you out it your first year.
Sorry didn’t mean it as a reply I just was pointing out that for some people these schools make sense. And thank you for your kind words
87 percent first time bar pass second to U of M. Where does MSU rank in your vaunted scheme? Uh right that’s what I thought. Their rate was 84 percent.
Bar passage rate? Dude, EVERYONE should pass the bar. All it takes is study time. This is no way to measure whether attendence is a good idea. That said, a BAD bar passage rate is an indicator of whether it is a BAD idea to attend. IN any case, please go to the top of this thread to see an in depth discussion of Cooley’s bar passage rate claim. I think they are relying on 1 February bar exam result… which is silly… for several obvious reasons.
In any case:
Attending a professional graduate school (like law school) should be a business proposition. Are you getting something for the 3 years of lost salary (~$150k!) and the insane tuition rates (~$120k at most schools for 3 years… although I concede most people pay less… call it ~$80k)?
If you are getting a job that pays $50k on graduation I say you were screwed. Big time. Especially considering that law jobs are stressful and shitty.
Cooley and MSU are not worth their cost based on the job opportunities out of them. Just aren’t.
Derek,
You are KILLING ME man. Your rationale that spending $150k at law school over three years, and then getting a job at $50k upon graduation makes law graduates “screwed?” Are you aware of the growth potential that is associated with being an attorney? Yes it is true that the first year, or two, or three MAY not be very lucrative, but after some experience, attorneys can make a very good amount of money, even in a smaller market. At this point in time, there are not a lot of job opportunities in many career areas (outside medical), but one thing is for sure, our society will always need attorneys. In the long run, and after our economy gets back on track, being a lawyer, regardless of what school a person graduated from, will be a nice career.
Well, I hope you are right for your sake. Here is my rationale:
1) Students are paying $120k for tuition alone. Figure the average student gets a 33% scholarship (some a bunch more more, some zero) for a total of $80k in tuition.
2) They are also losing 3 years of income which is ANOTHER $150k (assuming $50k a year)
3) That means a total loss of $230k NOT including interest… which can add a bunch more. With interest, let’s call that $350k over 10 years.
4) 50,000 new attorneys are produced by our law schools every year
5) If you had started some OTHER career, you would have no debt, a decent salary (Assistant Managers in big box retail are making $60k a year with a bonus)
6) You act as though no other careers have upward mobility. That is not true. Store managers in Big Box retail, for example, are making six figures.
7) You also act as though most lawyers who start at your small firm will end up making a ton of money. While I concede it is possible, there simply is not enough demand for everyone one of the 50,000 new attorneys (again, PRODUCED YEARLY) to all make $100k+ on DUI cases (or what have you).
8) Finally, most people realize that they hate practicing law. Some do not. Yay for them. Most seem to find it miserable. Depression rates amongst lawyers are very very high.
9) In light of 1-8, I am arguing that if you are going to do it, make sure you do it right and set yourself up for a big paycheck.
Hilarious… This is just great. I love people on here making statements that hold no truth! I’m a lawyer. I graduated last year, I essentially graduated from grad school at the worst possible time. I was accepted into cooley among other schools. I can’t say I was ever going to attend because I did have options. I ended up going to wayne state, and I now work for a small law firm in detroit making 70k a year. It isn’t the greatest salary but its not the worst either. The truth is you have to work for what you get and who you become, its all about choices. Where you graduate can be important if you want the big firm job. But I wouldn’t trade my degree for the world. I tell you what..i’m a lot better off than just graduating with a Political Science degree. In your lifetime I guarantee you’ll make more than the average person had you not gone to law school. Let things play themselves out. Make connections and do your best in what ever area your practicing, you just really never know what will happen. I know one thing i’m glad I didn’t listen to all the people who told me not to. You want to be a lawyer right?..just like that other person wants to be a teacher or a cop. So go to law school! DON’T LISTEN TO THESE PEOPLE! DO WHAT YOU WANT.
cheers!
See my resonse to the other guy just above. I am glad you found work that you like.
I think many people realize they hate it, have a ton of debt and are getting paid shit wages relative to all of the debt they took on.
As for you comment about “working for what you get”: believe me, you are preaching to the choir. Absolutely agree with you there. I have worked very hard to achieve everything I have achieved so far in life.
That said, I have ALSO found that sometimes, when you pick a path, you are automatically closing down other paths. Going to a bad law school does exactly that.
Look: losing hundreds of thousands of dollars in order to get a job paying $55k (or whatever) doing work that most people have no idea if they will enjoy is VERY BAD INVESTMENT DECISION.
everyones not going to make 55k though. And everyone doesn’t have the same aspirations. Some people love public interest law and make close to nothing compared big law lawyers. It isn’t a bad investment if you want to be a lawyer! Like I said, if you want to be a doctor a dentist a mortician or a teacher your not always going to like what you do all the time.
You don’t commit to going into debt and wasting time in grad school just so you can earn tons of money. And those who think that way always hate what they do. Because its not about the money. I live very comfortable. I’m a 29 year old male with no kids. I think making 70k with almost no debt will be just fine. its cliche but its not about where you start its about where you finish. Who knows I might be working in business one day or in my own practice. In the grand scheme of things the person who graduated from a lower tier law school doesn’t mean that for the rest of his life he will be making 55k!
“It isn’t a bad investment if you want to be a lawyer!”
Oh, absolutely! I agree: if you know that your calling in life is to be a lawyer, then you should do whatever it takes to be happy.
One concern is that very few law students actually know what being a lawyer entails which is why there are so very many unhappy lawyers.
“Because it’s not about the money.”
My take on it is: if you are about to lose hundreds of thousands of dollars, at least *some* piece of it needs to be about money.
“I think making 70k with almost no debt will be just fine.”
Oh sure! 70k and no debt is plenty comfortable. Heck, I was gambling in real estate with that income. The thing of it is, though, I have held several jobs that did not require a law degree that paid me that much… with only a few years of experience. Heck, I had a 6 figure income at 27 with just a B.A.
“In the grand scheme of things the person who graduated from a lower tier law school doesn’t mean that for the rest of his life he will be making 55k!”
True. However, the reverse is also true: someone without a law degree who starts at 55K right now will ALSO not be at 55k for the rest of his life.
From a financial point of view, lower tier law schools make no sense.
From a happiness perspective, I think very few people really understand what they are getting themselves into.
i noticed some spelling mistakes and a part where it didn’t make sense..but I was in a rush. sorry.
Ah, no big deal. This is just a blog and a friendly discussion.
Many lawyers turn to substance abuse. From Abovethelaw (quoting the Guardian):
A”ctually, attorneys overindulge a lot. A Guardian story from Saturday said, “Research suggests 15-24% of lawyers will suffer from alcoholism during their careers.” That’s almost a quarter of the profession, and a lot higher than the general population.”
If you’re stupid enough to attend this law school, you deserve the worthless J.D. you receive.
Derek your right. Many people enter law school without knowing what there truly getting into. But the same happens in every profession. My mother was a doctor and realized after six years she didn’t want to be one. Well many would say she didn’t look into it enough..some would say med-school it was a waste of money. But thats life. What are we going to do?..go through life and not try things just because we think we might not make enough money at it or not like it?…what about the lawyers who like what they do?..the lawyers who aren’t alcoholics? my calling in life wasn’t to necessarily to be a lawyer. That being said before I became a lawyer I knew what I was getting into. I read the blogs, I did the research, I talked to many lawyers. I had interned for a general counsel for an insurance company for two summers. I knew what it was about. I knew that everyday you weren’t going to necessarily like what you were doing. But do teachers love every part of their job?…do doctors?
Look man I think we can all agree that Thomas cooley isn’t the best law school in the world. But for some people that is the only option they have. Whatever the amount of debt they may incur won’t follow them for the rest of their lives. Whatever the amount that a lawyer may be compensated in whatever field he is in, is likely more than enough to pay that debt back many times over. Like I said if you want to be a lawyer and your willing to take on debt to do it..than so be it. Since when are people deterred from doing something they want(if they’re serious about it). I will agree though that a lot of people don’t research the profession enough and the majority of people don’t know what their getting into. Long hours, boring work at times and not always large sums of money. My advice to anyone here wanting to go to law school is to make sure you know what your getting into. Derek is right about one thing it isn’t all happy days…then again what profession is.
This is fun. I am actually studying for finals at Cooley as I read this. HAHA. Cooley was not the best school I could have attended, it was the most convient. Now I know if I throw this out here I will be asked why but here goes. I was accepted to Cornell, I chose Cooley because of my kids. It wasn’t till my last term as a 1L that i learned of Cooleys “Awesome” rep as a law school. I do stay out of the politics of these talks, although entertaining, because I just don’t care. Maybe im being dumb but from what I understand law school won’t teach you to be an attorney. I hear you learn the law on the job. This being said I do no know if I am even going to practice. I wanted to and would have been quite successful because of the school I wanted to attend but with Cooley I am kinda using it as more of a masters degree. Funny to say the least. Although I have heard that many law schools will allow you to use notes and outlines on finals where we have to pull it all from memory. Believe me, I wish we could use notes…..I would not be pulling an all nighter. Does Cooley suck, kinda, is it the best school in the nation, no, is it #12, hell no, is it a law school with a good rep to those in Michigan, yes. Also if you must know…Cooley has a hard time transferin students at the top of the class. It lowers there stats on the bar. I know this from numerous friends of mine who are top of the class and will not be released.
i am a cooley grad. i was a extern for a prosecutor. my quality of work was so high that he let me handle a trial against a serial killer almost completely on my own! of course he had to make the arguments in court but he took all the cues from me. the serial killer had a team of lawyers from harvard and at the end of the trial the judge said that the prosecutor did SUCH a better job that it made us win the case! the prosecutor just smiled he said “judge i owe it all to my extern!” the judge said “oic wow is your extern from harvard? yale?” and i was proud to say “no your honor im from cooley!”
i passed the bar exam with flying colors and now i work at a job where i am can charge $3000 per hour! i also won a moot court competition beating a team with ten top lawyers from harvard yale and stanford. so this proves that it takes more then just prestige to be good at law work! i am proud of cooley they gave me the tools to succeed and it was much better then any other law school in the country.
FUCK HARVARD
Parody = Hilarity! You tells those Ivy League snobs! You’re not just as good, you’re BETTER!
did they give you the tools to write proper english grammar?
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I live in the lansing area. I am not surprised at this article. Everybody in my area behaves like this, and I am looking to move to a different country.
Yeah I know! FUCK AMERICA
And here is a fun article by Law School Transparency that is on topic:
http://thecareerist.typepad.com/thecareerist/2011/12/law-school-transparency-fires-back-at-cooleys-dean-.html
Hi i graduated cooley and I make 999999999999999999999999999 buks a year u guys are so jealous coolye hase beetan harlvard yeah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
But seriously, I want to escape the country to get away from this place. What should I do?
interesting article, but I take issue with a few things in it:
first of all, your math doesn’t add up at all. The admissions formula you used is incorrect and doesn’t match Cooley’s. You use several paragraphs to suggest that Cooley uses ‘tricky math’ to skew studies and such but you weren’t able to find where such a mathematical flaw was. All this would be semi-acceptable if it wasn’t for my 3rd issue with the article. If this is supposed to be unbiased reporting, you have failed. The article is so heavily opinionated (further shown by your “Note” at the end attempting to kill the credibility and legitimacy of any statement made that might disagree with your own opinion regardless of how valid it may be.
Looking into your credentials, it gives further proof to my argument to see that yourself along with another one of the creators of this website go to the same law school, hundreds of miles from the closest Cooley law school. This suggests that you lack the insight that many of the comments from Michigan-based law students such as myself bring, which you so readily refused to confront (Refusing an argument, possibly for fear of its formidability. . .good luck as a lawyer). I also took notice that many of the comments supporting you and your argument came from your friend who also created the website. Knowing that he also lives in Philly ruins his credibility for the same reason, not to mention the bias he has from being your friend which would prevent him in viewing comments objectively.
Feel free to take your time, draw up a response or a counter-argument, and I’ll welcomely receive and reply to it. Frankly, after reading your disrespectful, ostentatious, snooty, know-it-all replies to comments that didn’t conform to your opinion, I’m surprised that you’re in law school. See if you can get a refund. IMHO, I think people who disagree should be able to cordially debate with calm discourse; to quote the movie Troy, “even enemies can show respect.”
And I think people who live in different geographies can look relevant statistics on the internet. The only way your locational argument matters is if skewed anecdotal evidence carries any weight, which it doesn’t. Or to quote conventional wisdom, “respect is earned.”
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Too bad the cooley grad can’t get in situation “where respect is earned” because they are unemployment or working non-law jobs.
The data is here:
http://www.lawschooltransparency.com/clearinghouse/?school=cooley
About 20 percent get to be lawyers. Less than 7 percent report salaries (showing their embarrassment, as NYU gets like 80 percent response rate).
Yes I was scared of Cooley reputation. Now the I am inside. All I see is professionalism and opportunity. They are teaching me how to be a lawyer. To the writer….Sir, your whole article is “unverified” b/c you do not attend my school. You can only speak to numbers.You are write they are not number 12 in the nation. To me, they are number one.
I’m not usually a stickler for grammar on the internet, but when you come out to defend the intellectual reputation of your school, it’s often best to avoid using “write” when you actually mean “right”
Awesome bump. Cooley marketing dep’t really earning their keep ITT.
I don’t think Cooley is a bad school. The problem with Cooley is that they are the biggest producer of an over produced product. I’ve seen attorneys in action. I wouldn’t say that there is any real difference between those from one school to another. What Cooley can’t provide is the post graduate placement needed to promote their alumni, The LSAT was originally designed to measure a prospects ability to succeed during the first year of law school. As a result of this fact/ belief I don’t think the student bodies average LSAT should be considered when ranking schools. Cooley does place an emphasis of preparing its students for the bar exam. Many other schools leave that to bar review courses. As a result I don’t think the bar pass rate should be part of the metric either. Perhaps there is no real way to rank the schools.
Here is some evidence of a poor gullible Cooley student who prolifically publishes while learning in the academic cesspool that is Cooley: http://works.bepress.com/colin_maguire/. I particularly thought about how gullible I was when I presenting a white paper at Oxford. I will say that Cooley could have supported some of my efforts better. After all, they need the reputation help. Still, Cooley helped me stream-line my thought process and focus more on my writing. Also, I have a job ready for me.
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Only idiots go to Cooley, and the comments on this article are PROOF.
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The author sounds like someone who flunked out of Cooley.
The author sound like someone who flunked out of Cooley. A little too angry.
JJ
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Cooley Law is a redemption school – for people who did not apply themselves in college and/or the LSAT. I would go to Cooley if I really wanted to go to law school but did not perform well in college. The education you get there is very good – the program is very rigerous – you can’t take outlines in with you to exams so you have to memorize your outlIne – which can take some time. They have a mandatory attendance policy and required classes that take up 3/4 of the program. All required class are graded on a strict C curve. Knowing people from other com
Cooley Law is a redemption school – for people who did not apply themselves in college and/or the LSAT. I would go to Cooley if I really wanted to go to law school but did not perform well in college. The education you get there is very good – the program is very rigerous – you can’t take outlines in with you to exams so you have to memorize your outlIne – which can take some time. They have a mandatory attendance policy and required classes that take up 3/4 of the program. All required class are graded on a strict C curve. Knowing people from other competitive law schools – they could take their outlines in to exams – they only had 1/3 required classes – they could study abroad. They had an almost country club lifestyle. I went there and got research skills and writing skills that I needed. Do I wish I got to go to a fun law school and spent a semester at Oxford? Yes, but I do not regret the education I received and skills I received from the attendance.
I wrote this on my iphone at lunch – it should read:1. Cooley Law is a redemption school – for people who did not apply themselves in college and/or the LSAT. I would go to Cooley if I really wanted to go to law school but did not perform well in college. The education you get there is very good – the program is very rigorous – you can’t take outlines in with you to exams so you have to memorize your outline – which can take some time. They have a mandatory attendance policy and required classes that take up 3/4 of the program. All required classes are graded on a strict “C” curve. Knowing people from other competitive law schools – they could take their outlines into exams – they only had 1/3 required classes – they could study abroad and were graded on a B to B+ curve. They had an almost country club lifestyle. I went to Cooley and got research skills and writing skills that I needed. Do I wish I got to go to a fun law school and spend a semester at Oxford? Yes, but I do not regret the education I received and skills I received from the attendance.
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On April 4, 2013, the Diane Rehm Show (NPR) hosted Steven Harper, a professor at Northwestern University who teaches a course at the school regarding the wide gap between the expectations and the reality of practicing law (i.e. too many lawyers and not enough jobs). He was on the show to promote his new book, “The Lawyer Bubble: a Profession in Crisis.”
The show’s host, Ms. Page (sitting in for Diane Rehm) asked Mr. Harper whether it was “a smart way for somebody who wants to go to law school to look at the choices and decide on which is the most prestigious, the one that’s best, the one that will give them the best credentials for getting a job afterwards?”
Mr. Harper responded, “It’s a terrible way to make that decision. And the problem, the reason it’s so widely accepted, I think, is that most people don’t understand how terrible the methodology is. I’ll just give you one example. Forty percent of the U.S. News methodology comes from something called quality assessment. Well, you would think, wow, quality assessment. This must be really important. Well, quality assessment, it turns out, has two components. One component has to do with a survey that U.S. News sends out every year to four individuals at every ABA-accredited law school. And the four individuals are the dean, the dean of academic affairs, the most-recently tenured faculty member and the chairman of faculty appointments. And each of those four people at every accredited law school, 200 is asked to rank from one to five every other law school in the country. You can respond, don’t know, but we don’t know how many people respond with, don’t know. That’s a quarter of a school’s ranking. There’s another piece, though, that’s even more ridiculous and that, again, quality assessment, the other piece of quality assessment is the same survey that goes out to an undisclosed sample of judges and practicing lawyers and they are asked to do the same thing, rank all 200 law schools, 1 to 200 on a scale of one to five. Well, the response rate most recently to that survey was about 9 percent. Last year, it was about 12 percent. So there you have almost half of the U.S. News ranking component going to so-called quality assessment.”
Mr. Harper later noted that it is “important to remember in all this is that the profession is not monolithic. There are — and the data support the caller’s own experience. The people who tend to be the happiest, that is the most satisfied in their careers as lawyers tend to be those who, paradoxically, are making the least amount of money. So if you go to the public sector, you go to public defenders, you go to even government prosecutors and so forth. And then — that’s a relatively satisfied group. But then you work your way up into ultimately large law firms, which is the second part of my book. And you have people who are making enormous sums and relatively dissatisfied with their careers. Well, interestingly, there was a survey done by the jobs website Career Bliss. It was reported in Forbes last week. And it ranked — it had people ranked how happy they were in their jobs. And of 100 jobs, the number one most unhappy job was an associate attorney in a law firm. You’ll be — I was surprised by that. I was also surprised that the happiest, by the way, was to be a real estate agent.”
I graduated from Cooley in 2009. I work for a federal government agency as an attorney. I make around $75,000/year (base) once my cost of living bonus is factored in. I can work overtime if I want to, but there is no pressure to do so. In July I will get my raise to a GS-13 position which pays just under $90,000/year before overtime. I work Monday through Friday, 9am to 5pm. There is little stress.
Several people posting on this site have put Cooley graduates down, stating that graduates, such as myself, are only good for government jobs. First, my government job is great, and it pays more than many law students graduating right now from “better” law schools will receive. Secondly, as Mr. Harper so aptly pointed out, the US News rankings upon which the law school hierarchy is based is inherently flawed. Even if students graduating from the best law schools land highly coveted first-year associate jobs, the data reported in Forbes suggests they’ll be incredibly unhappy.
Food for thought.
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I rarely comment, but I read a few of the remarks on Thomas
Cooley Law School is an Embarrassment | The Political Cartel Foundation.
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